Talk:Madison West High School#Request for Source Contributions

First, the trivia point about the band Locksley needs to be fixed--right now, it contains the line "Kai Kennedy (lead guitar) who replaced Justin or Josh something."

Second, the trivia point about the freshman girls volleyball team degrades the quality of the article. While state championships and the like are notable facts, poorly articulated, commonplace events like placing third in an unspecified championship don't belong here.

:I have removed several points in this section, which are either garbage or need to be placed elsewhere, but do not belong in the article per WP guidelines on trivia. Chris 10:11, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I think if this school is deemed to be notable enough to be included, some mention should also be made of its darker incidents, mainly racial tension that erupted in a large scale fight several years ago and the middle-of-the-day rape that took place there, causing widespread outrage in the Madison area for a good deal of time after both incidents. This is noteworthy because despite the relatively poorer academic records of some of the other schools in the city, such incidents have not occured (or at least been reported on) in them. ALG 4:39, 5 March 2006

It may be true that the majority of incidents in the Madison area high schools seem to have occurred at West. However, it is not uncommon knowledge among many students in the area that similar things happen in most of the schools.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.100.92.93 (talk • contribs) 12:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

-----

Hello Etzedek24,

I do not wish this to involve an editing war. The WILL findings were accurate and true; they directly cited West High School's email without distortion or paraphrasing. And West High School's action of dividing students' parents into "white student room" and "student of color room" can be described as racism by Webster dictionary definition, "a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race" and could violate the Civil Rights Act of 1964. This would be more likely true under the latest Supreme Court 9-0, Ames v. Ohio Dep't. of Youth Servs., 605 U.S. ____ (2025). ruling, pointed to the text of Title VII, which contains no language that requires an individual in the majority to meet a higher standard than that of an individual in the minority. Moreover, this was significant news reported by local papers and a point of contention between parents and the district at the time.

Additionally, the lawsuits regarding the use of forced pronouns in the School Policy were a significant issue as well. You deleted it without any reason.

It is the spirit of Wikipedia not to censor, and what has happened needs to be shown as they were.

I have deleted the Trump 2025 Executive Order part, as you reasonably mentioned, it did not mention West High School. I deleted the introduction part that mentions' West's 'Scandals and Controversies' because they would not reflect recency as time goes forward.

What do you think about removing the "Scandals" part, and keeping "Controversies" as the section title, because I believe our disagreement is that you or some others holding different political views could disagree what WILL be cited as Scandals; however, it is in all accuracy to say they are controversial because of that.

Please let me know if you have further comments or dissents. I appreciate your time and this civil discourse, and let's keep it in good faith.

Sincerely,

Feather943 Feather943 (talk) 04:06, 12 June 2025 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Feather943 (talk • contribs)

• Support Shawn 23:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
• Support lowfatsourcreme 22:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Moved from Talk:Madison West

Saying that West is 'generally regarded' as the best high school in Madison is of questionable NPOV status. I plan to remove it if no source can be cited for such a claim.--Hraefen 03:49, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

:I agree, seeing as how Edgewood and Memorial are also very good high schools. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.188.98.56 (talk • contribs) {{{2|}}}.

I am going to move the information in the courses section into Trivia if I deem necessary and all other information merged in with introduction because it can be implied that the high school offers "courses in advanced math" like any other average US high school. I don't think Madison West's advanced courses have any notability. --20:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)(forgot siggy)

Further, I would argue that we would call the language classes "world languages" because languages can mean German Language or English Language, which is not seen as a foreing/world language. Some distinction is needed. --Shawn 20:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I keep reverting the world languages bulletpoint because it's more succinct.--Lowfatsourcreme 22:21, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:I don't think so. I think the 2 different facts deserve two different bulletpoints because they are not dependent on one another. The fact that courses are offered in more languages than normal to a high school is seperate from the fact that 90% of students take a language. Furthermore, I think it will make this process a little easier if you use edit summary and we all note on the talk page why we are making changes. Leave a message here or on my talk page if you want to discuss further. Thanks and Happy Wiki! --Shawn 23:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

This page has been semi-protected due to vandalism. Durova^Charge! 12:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

== Centrx's modification ==

Seems excessive to me. What's up with that? I understand very little information was referenced, but "wow". stainofmind 14:26, 04 December 2006

• Centrx, you should just put this article up for deletion if you don't think the school's website is a good source. Heck, put up all school articles then because if they're all using their school website as a source.++aviper2k7++ 02:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::I gotta say, looking at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Madison_West_High_School&oldid=90534737 this version] before Centrx stubbed it, I don't think he did anything wrong. Everything should be verifiable. With the amount of information currently in the article, it probably should be a stub. I encourage you to look at Plano Senior High School, a featured article based on a rather "normal" high school. It's extensively sourced and has a lot of good information that would be interesting to a reader who may not even be familiar with the school.

::Alumni lists especially are especially problematic. The general rule of thumb is that if the person doesn't merit their own article on Wikipedia, (such as Erich Eichman, Peter Koechley, Donnel Thompson, and Ben Wikler) then they shouldn't be included. You should have a reliable source for all the rest, too. It's far too easy for someone to add a person incorrectly and have it go unnoticed. –  Anþony  talk  13:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Several of the listed alumni mention the school in their own articles. Unless it is challenged in that article, it should not be challenged in the school's article. It's also a little unfair to claim that "...if the person doesn't merit their own article on Wikipedia, (such as Erich Eichman, Peter Koechley, Donnel Thompson, and Ben Wikler) then they shouldn't be included..." I mean, Wikipedia is still largely incomplete. There are plenty of prominent people (in the public eye) that merit an article (if written well enough) but don't yet have one. stainfomind 14:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::::If the person's article has a source, copy it here. Maybe someone will edit that article and remove both the claim and source, and now your claim here is no longer verifiable. If the other article doesn't have a source, find one and add it to both articles. If you can't find a source, remove the claim from both articles.

::::There's no hard and fast rule about whether someone deserves to be included in a list of famous alumni. Certainly, you don't want every Joe Blow who graduates on your list. A good start might be WP:BIO, which has criteria for establishing a person's notability to determine if they merit an article. –  Anþony  talk  14:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Grammar correction: You should edit the "it's" to "its" in the opening paragraph for Madison West.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.208.76.106 (talk • contribs)

:Done. Hut 8.5 16:19, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The science olympiad team has only won 7 straight state competitions up to this point, including the most recent competition on Saturday, March 31, 2007. The current article implies that they would have won 8 straight state competitions if including the 2007 state competition.

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 10:22, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I am currently a student at West High School and I was bored, so I decided to take a look at the Wiki to see if anything interesting was here. While browsing the section that includes the listings of the world languages taught at West I noticed that there is no mention of the Japanese program which ranges from the primarily Freshman course of "Japanese I" to the upper levels of proficiency.

I just thought that this was something that should be pointed out seeing as quite a few students take it, however, for some reason German was not considered a world language either so if this was an intentional exemption of the information I would like some clarification. A second question that I would like to ask of the powers that be is that if everyone decided that the alumni that would be included had to have a wiki page, why do about half of them not have links/pages at all? - Dee —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.47.68 (talk) 20:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I propose that the Notable Alumni list only includes a list of people who merit their own article.

If a person does not merit a right to be in an encyclopedic work, then why would he or she be deemed notable enough to be referenced elsewhere in the encyclopedia?69.129.197.95 (talk) 03:25, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

It appears that the West staff has been rather bad at updating the Clubs and Activities page for the various clubs at the school, and as such many clubs that I know for a fact exist in an official capacity are not listed. What would constitute a notable source for these clubs that are not also original research? I'd rather not delete Sheepshead Club, as it has become a fixture in the school culture (no, I can't verify this) for over a year now, but I don't think I can find a good source for it. Additionally, the Notability tag is misused in the clubs section. The notability page specifically says "The notability guidelines do not limit content within an article." If there is no objection, I will delete the notability span from the "Clubs and Activities" section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quartinus (talk • contribs) 07:27, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

The user Mesconsing posted that they had removed so-called "peacockery" from many of the sections describing the text. While the text was verbose, this also made the sections read like a back-issue of a 1967 New York State Official Tax Manual's description of the extracurricular activities of the school. I propose adding back some of this "peacockery" or as some call it, good writing, in order to make the sections readable.

--Quartinus 06:38, 7 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quartinus (talk • contribs)

:See WP:PEACOCK. Our articles are supposed to be neutral and not written in such a way as to promote the subject. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a brochure for the school. Hut 8.5 12:21, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

As it very well should be. The content that existed before was unnecessarily verbose and promoting, obviously, but I think the current sections could be written in a better and more flowing way to make it less choppy and more readable. Quartinus 19:07, 7 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quartinus (talk • contribs)

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The below paragraph could be added to introduction because they were what's really happened, yet deliberately hidden by the school on public records:

"West High School is located in Dane County (75.5% voted Democrat in 2024 presidential election, higher than Los Angeles' 64.82%). The district and school has a strong liberal student and faculty base, and has faced controversies, litigations and federal criticisms over intense culture war issue from 2019 to 2025. This school has hired a DEI officer (PhD from UW Madison) who implements Critical Race Theory (CRT) courses derived from Marxism on Cultural Front to students once per semester, and has been hostile and silencing to conservative valued or traditional religious parents and students. Feather943 (talk) 05:48, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:Looking at the source provided, I'm finding no mention of the DEI officer, no source for the claim that Critical Race Theory derives from "Marxism on Cultural Front", and no claims of hostility or silencing of conservatives. No evidence of deliberate hiding of public records by the school either. — 🪫Volatile ^{📲T | ⌨️C} 05:58, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::“No evidence of deliberate hiding of public records by the school either. ”If there is evidence reported by public media, then it won't be claimed as "hiding". Feather943 (talk) 06:04, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Then per WP:Verifiability said claims should not be incorporated into the article. Unfortunately we can't just take the word of one person that "they were what's really happened". — 🪫Volatile ^{📲T | ⌨️C} 06:11, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Alright, then. Feather943 (talk) 06:14, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

I agree with Etzedek24 that the edits over the past few days are not great and should be reverted to the WP:STATUSQUO. I don't object to all of the changes made, but the problem is that most or all of them are cited to primary or low-quality sources. Most claims on Wikipedia should be cited to reliable, secondary, independent sources, like reputable newspapers, magazines, journals, and so on. Controversial claims require the most reputable sources, and often multiple sources.

I haven't reverted myself because I don't want to edit war. But at this point, it's supposed to be up to the editor who wants to add content to build consensus for those changes. Woodroar (talk) 04:39, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

:I should note that obviously I do not object to the general expansion of the school's history and so on, but rather to the very obvious fact that there is an attempt to push a certain agenda regarding the school with all the unreliable WILL sources. If the "controversy" section were removed in its near entirety (with the potential exception of the appropriately cited controversy already in the page) then that would be fine with me. Etzedek24 ^{(I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record)} 05:12, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

::Regarding the political controversies section:

::* The security guard bit is appropriately sourced, and given the nature of the source, I'm sure there was more coverage that could be found. However, this could also be removed and not hurt the article.

::* The bit about the Zoom controversies in 2021, if it is to be included in the article, needs independent sources not from the right-wing Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty, which are both unreliable and not independent sources. There could be a rewriting of this section with sources such as [https://captimes.com/opinion/column/dave_zweifel/plain-talk-will-has-no-place-lecturing-madison-west-high-school/article_1a7aa0a3-0867-554c-baf7-04e00f746a15.html this Cap Times editorial] and other sources, but a quick look shows that the story was mostly carried around in conservative media circles and would likely give undue weight to that point of view.

::* The gender identity lawsuit, as far as I can tell, does not mention the school itself at all and should be removed; it also suffers from the same reliability issues listed above.

::* The subsequent 2025 section concerning Executive Order 14190 and the source provided also does not mention the school at all and should be removed.

::Etzedek24 ^{(I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record)} 05:31, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Hello! I have made some changes to the article. Seeing as this article has been pretty active with changes lately, I wanted to ask if you guys generally regard the changes I made as good. I cleaned up some sections and fixed some inaccurate info. Also, I changed the photo of WHS to be at the top. If anyone has any feedback or suggestions, please comment. Furthermore, I wanted to add that West has a pretty notable music program including choir, band, and orchestra and runs a unique Fine Arts Week that showcases many musical and artistic performances. Maybe this would be worth writing about? Tell me what you guys think. Fastreindeer45 (talk) 05:26, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

:Hello @Fastreindeer45,

:I find your changes are of good quality and indeed concise the article.

:It would be wonderful if you could include West's notable music programs and the Fine Arts week!

:Feather943 (talk) 05:34, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

:@Fastreindeer45, I'm sorry but I don't view most of your edits as improvements. This is largely due to the primary/school sources that you're using. On Wikipedia, most content should be cited to reliable, secondary, independent sources, like newspapers, magazines, journals, and so on. We can use primary sources in limited circumstances, but only for very basic facts—for example, the year the school was founded. We should never use primary sources for self-serving claims, like a school's class offerings, extracurriculars, placement in events, awards, etc. We need to let those reliable, secondary sources guide our content.

:In addition, I see several names were added without sources at all. Our policies on content about living persons is very strict and all of that needs to be cited to reliable, secondary sources.

:I did see a section cited to U.S. News & World Report, which is great. That's an example of the content and citation that we're looking for on Wikipedia. Woodroar (talk) 14:08, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

::Hello, thank you for your feedback. I will work on the additions I made to bring them up to par with Wikipedia's quality guidelines. If I find secondary sources to back up all the things I added, is it alright to keep them? Second, when referencing the Science Olympiad team's recent placements, I did in fact use a secondary source: an independent database that reports on Science Olympiad tournaments and is not affiliated at all with West (or the Science Olympiad organization, for that matter). And yes, that's my bad for not sourcing the assistant principals, I'll do that immediately. Fastreindeer45 (talk) 14:46, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

:::If you can find secondary sources, then yes, that content can absolutely stay! Regional newspapers are the most likely sources for content like that. Keep in mind that our guidelines exclude school newspapers as they are typically low quality.

:::As far as the Science Olympiad goes, we don't allow sources that are use-generated or based on user submissions, so both [https://scioly.org/ SCIOLY.org] and [https://www.duosmium.org/ Duosmium.org] are both considered unreliable. (We also don't use Wikipedia as a source.) If you can find the Science Olympiad results in reliable, secondary sources, then use those.

:::You can read more about sourcing at our page on reliable sources and see a list of sites that we have determined to be reliable, situational, or unreliable. Woodroar (talk) 15:04, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Hello, do any of you know what the official logo/seal of West is? There are a few versions, notably the front-facing, slightly disheveled looking Reggie the Regent, the more modern, crisp, ferocious looking, sideways-facing Reggie, and the simple blue W with a yellow circle background. I was thinking we could add one of these three to the bottom of the info-box. Which one would you guys vote for? Here are the links:

Old Reggie: https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/549600321329045504/mwCUJdab_200x200.png

New Reggie: https://sportshub2-uploads.vnn-prod.zone/files/sites/3007/2021/05/24170622/logo_20028.png

Classic West "W": https://resources.finalsite.net/images/f_auto,q_auto,t_image_size_2/v1625251127/madisonk12wius/mckbo4d2bixm9lugnso2/W-04.png Fastreindeer45 (talk) 19:11, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

:The W might be able to be used because it is not unique enough to be copyrighted, but the other two would require a fair use or permission from the school district to use. Etzedek24 (Talk) (Contribs) 19:21, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

:Watch for this plausible change, [https://www.wmtv15news.com/2025/01/29/mmsd-proposes-mascot-logo-changes-all-four-high-schools/ MMSD proposes mascot, logo changes to all four high schools] Jan. 29, 2025

:But if it doesn't change, then it's same as above. Feather943 (talk) 02:02, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

A citation is needed for "From 2021 to 2024, the MMSD school board considered removing honors classes, though the proposal was not adopted following large community opposition."

Two good sources to be used as citations:

(1) https://madison.com/news/local/education/local_schools/parents-students-question-one-size-fits-all-approach-in-madison-push-for-earned-honors/article_a955e9ed-10bf-515b-b8c9-cf367f74fd3b.html May 23, 2021

(2) https://isthmus.com/news/news/madison-hits-pause-on-honors/ February 15, 2022

Feather943 (talk) 02:13, 25 June 2025 (UTC)