Talk:Michael Jordan

In the "Pistons Roadblock" section, it reads: "Jordan again led the league in scoring during the 1987–88 season, averaging 35.0 ppg on 53.5% shooting,[40] and he won his first league MVP Award. He was also named the NBA Defensive Player of the Year...". A seemingly important detail left out was that this was the first time a player won both MVP and DPOY in the same season in NBA history (and has only, as of 2022, been repeated twice). I don't have permissions to edit this page, but could this detail be added? https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/players-named-mvp-and-dpoy-in-same-season

There's discussion at {{section link|Talk:Wilt_Chamberlain#RfC:_Can_Wilt_Chamberlain_be_called_the_greatest_player_of_all-time?}} about the suitability of NBA.com's statement in Jordan's lead: {{tqq|By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time.}}

If something like this were to stay in the lead, we should be looking for mainstream sources that assess that he is "widely considered" the greatest, if he still even is. A fair cutoff might be sources leading up to James becoming the all-time leading scorer (or after). Here's some sources I've found:

• "Now, he’s widely regarded as the greatest basketball player of all-time." [https://bullswire.usatoday.com/2024/05/07/anthony-edwards-pushes-back-on-michael-jordan-comparisons/ USA Today]. May 7, 2024.
• "Widely considered the greatest basketball player of all time, Michael Jordan won six NBA titles with the Chicago Bulls and is an icon in both sports and business." [https://www.forbes.com/sites/jabariyoung/2024/12/19/forbes-blk-50-2024/ Forbes.com]. December 20, 2024,
• "Michael Jordan is widely considered to be the greatest basketball player of all time." [https://www.usab.com/news/2015/11/how-michael-jordans-mindset-made-him-a-great-competitor USA Basketball]. November 25, 2015.
• "There aren’t many stars who can boast about besting Michael Jordan, widely regarded as the greatest of all time by most basketball fans." [https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-stars-who-had-a-winning-record-against-michael-jordan/ Hoops Hype]. November 9, 2024.
• "While Michael Jordan won the “Greatest of All Time” category for the third consecutive time, his once-massive lead over LeBron James has shrunk significantly with every passing poll." [https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5432961/2024/04/23/lebron-james-goat-michael-jordan-nba-player-poll/ The Athletic]. April 23, 2024.

—Bagumba (talk) 10:05, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

:Don't think USA Basketball is an independent source since it's a sports governing body and being published in 2015 makes it outdated for considering LeBron. Is Hoops Hype reliable? Another caveat about that source is that it attributes the claim to "most basketball fans" rather than making an authoritative statement in its own voice, or at least attributing it to scholarship rather than fans. The second-to-last paragraph of WP:WEIGHT says (emphasis mine) {{tq2|Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public.}} Though I suppose if that source is reliable, it might be usable to support something like "most basketball fans consider Jordan the greatest player of all-time". Left guide (talk) 08:19, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

::Good that someone looked at the sources, let alone their publication dates. —Bagumba (talk) 07:15, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

:::If someone is considered by most experts, fans and players as the greatest of all time, then it is neutral to say he is widely considered to be the greatest according to Wikipedia's guidelines. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#:~:text=All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia,reliable sources on a topic. Orlando Davis (talk) 00:40, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

::::I don't think it's a problem that multiple NBA players have Wikipedia's that quote that experts have called them the greatest. All of those articles are neutral if they note what experts from reliable sources have said. In fact, not adequately noting recognition could be a lack of neutrality due to leaving out critical information. Orlando Davis (talk) 01:00, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::For Jordan, he hasn't just been called the greatest by some experts. He is still widely considered to be the greatest because he wins every poll of writers, fans, and players. Orlando Davis (talk) 01:09, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::But not in the lead since it's a very subjective accolade. This is under discussion at the NBA Project. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:59, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::As far as I'm aware, it doesn't say anywhere that you can't put that in the lead. There are no Wikipedia guidelines on where you can't put praise from reliable sources. Please cite a Wikipedia guideline article where it says that you can't put a quote of praise from a highly reliable source in the lead. Orlando Davis (talk) 11:15, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::No but WikiProjects have big say on that and it's under discussion right now on whether to allow the term "greatest" in NBA player leads. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:42, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::73 percent of fans voted for MJ as the greatest. [https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29187444/michael-jordan-better-lebron-james-every-way-says-poll-nba-fans Espn.com] May 17, 2020.

::::::::Espn ranked Jordan number 1 among 75 greatest. [https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33297498/the-nba-75th-anniversary-team-ranked-where-76-basketball-legends-check-our-list Espn.com] July 31, 2022.

::::::::Michael Jordan recently won the vote among NBA players. [https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-poll-who-is-the-goat-michael-jordan-lebron-james-kobe-bryant-others-draw-votes/ HoopsHype] April 29, 2024.

::::::::There are countless reliable sources, including current ones. Those are only a few. The acclamation quote should be put back. Orlando Davis (talk) 00:13, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::yes i also believe that he should be considered the greatest most nba fans agree and sources making it practically fact at this point (which in my opinion it is but does not matter) Wcamp9 (talk) 15:58, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Come join the discussion and place your vote in the RFC here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association GOAT Bones231012 (talk) 16:24, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

Another source: "Fellow NBA legend Michael Jordan – widely considered to be the greatest basketball player of all time ..." [https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/31/sport/bill-russell-nba-legend-dies-spt-intl/index.html CNN]. August 1, 2022.—Bagumba (talk) 09:06, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

The supporting reference is from 17 years ago. That's a long time... Rosencrantz2 (talk) 20:08, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

:Replaced the previous citation with a much more modern article. Giants2008 (Talk) 18:16, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

{{Ping|Nikkimaria}} I don't think adding where Jordan got 23 from is overdetail. After all, he wore that number through almost his whole career and is indelibly associated with it. He wore 12 for a single regular-season game and here's the following information we have on that: "Jordan wore a nameless No. 12 jersey in a February 14, 1990, game against the Orlando Magic because his No. 23 jersey had been stolen. Jordan scored 49 points, setting a franchise record for players wearing that jersey number." There's also substantial explanation of Jordan wearing and then not wearing 45 in 1995, which lasted a grand total of 22 games. What I wrote is basically the same amount of detail, for the number he is iconic with. Also, I asked in the associated WikiProject, and they said it would be fine. Ladtrack (talk) 02:06, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:I would have no objection to reducing the other details you mention, but either way, the number he wore in high school and the math components don't need to be here. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:13, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::How about "He wore the same number 45 jersey as his brother Larry until until they ended up on the same team. He then halved the number and rounded up to arrive at the number 23. He would continue to use this number through college and, with the exception of a short period in 1995, throughout his professional career." It's shorter and removes the high school part. I do think the math has to stay because that's the crux of this edit. It's about how he got 23 and how he got 23 was math. I appreciate brevity as much as the next guy but that doesn't mean we have to exclude pertinent information. If it makes you feel better about whether it's due, it's over 21.5 games with the number 23 per word of this edit :) Ladtrack (talk) 03:29, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Unfortunately I still disagree that the number he wore in high school and the math components need to be here. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:41, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::::@Nikkimaria I agree, the number he wore in high school and the math components don't need to be added. Assadzadeh (talk) 21:13, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::I think Ladtrack's text needs a bit of massaging for clarity and flow. But I do think the 23 jersey is a major part of the Jordan "image," and an explanation of its origins would be helpful. I think dismissing it as the "number he wore in high school" is missing the point; the context of making the varsity team is what prompted him to decide on the number he would be associated with for decades to come. Major Jordan biographies, like Lazenby's Michael Jordan: The Life, do give space to the jersey origin story. Zagalejo (talk) 12:58, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::If you have that book, would you mind giving the relevant text? I'd be curious to see how Lazenby words it or if there is additional information in the book that wasn't in the USA Today article. Ladtrack (talk) 17:09, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Does this [https://books.google.com/books?id=leziAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT95&dq=herring+called+jordan+into+his+office&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi73ZKm_-6NAxVm4skDHSjFNOwQ6AF6BAgEEAM#v=onepage&q=herring%20called%20jordan%20into%20his%20office&f=false Google Books] link work for you? Zagalejo (talk) 18:10, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::It does, thanks. I do like how Lazenby uses it to show Jordan's legacy inspiring future basketball players. I think we can do that, too. So how about inserting something like this into the fifth paragraph of the legacy section to show the relevance? "Numerous subsequently NBA players have worn Jordan's 23 jersey number to pay tribute to him, including James, Metta Sandiford-Artest, and Anthony Davis." Maybe not exactly that wording or exactly those players but I think something like this could help show the relevance of the number to his legacy. Ladtrack (talk) 19:57, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Something like that might be OK. That legacy section is getting a bit choppy and bloated, so the whole section could benefit from reorganization (but that may be a project for another day.) Zagalejo (talk) 00:20, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

:Support adding back your edit regarding jersey number. GOAT Bones231012 (talk) 05:29, 12 June 2025 (UTC)