Talk:Minyans

Thanks for the correction on the relationship and the additional footnotes on this.--Doug ^talk 12:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Just so everyone knows, I created the "Archaeological evidence" section. I believe that the sourced content is relevant to the topic. If anyone has any logical objections, then please discuss them here and not on my discussion page. The purpose of my edits is to provide an archaeological dimension to the article (aside from the mention of "Minyan ware" in the introduction). Take care. Elysonius (talk) 01:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

:By the way, I added another reference to the "Archaeological evidence" section. The reference is Caskey's article entitled The Early Helladic Period in the Argolid. I thought it would be helpful to provide this source in order to enhance the accuracy, verifiability, and reliability of the section's content. Elysonius (talk) 01:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

:The undigested text in the added footnotes needs to be summarised in the text, in the usual way. Wikipedia ordinarily reports the most recent mainstream consensus. --Wetman (talk) 21:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

::I think it would be better to leave the current summary as it is now and preserve the "undigested text" in the references section for verifiability purposes. However, if you want to transfer the direct reference quotes from the "References" section to the "Archaeological evidence" section, then go for it. Overall, the reference citations should remain intact since they do adhere to WP:RS. Take it easy friend. Elysonius (talk) 20:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

::::The undigested text in the added footnotes needs to be summarised in the text, in the usual way. Wikipedia ordinarily reports the most recent mainstream consensus. Just the way it's done. --Wetman (talk) 06:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

:::::Wetman, I think you may need to elaborate on exactly what you want Elysonius to do. The way I see it, Elysonius is not trying to circumvent Wikipedia policy. Moreover, I think the summary in the "Archaeological evidence" section is fine (of course, it may need some tweaking here and there). However, the section does adequately reflect the references provided for it. Keep in mind Wetman that Elysonius's reporting of Caskey's discoveries is very helpful and provides an interesting historical perspective on the material culture left behind by the "Minyans". Deucalionite (talk) 14:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry... I haven't so much familiarity with English language, but I think the first text portion (in yellow background) probably should be delete.

Hood, pp. 8–9. "In an article on 'The Early Helladic Period in the Argolid' (Hesperia 29 (1960), 285 ff.), J. Caskey outlines some of the more important results of his excavations at Lerna from 1952–1958: The settlement here (including the palatial 'House of the Tiles') was destroyed by fire, apparently by invaders, at the end of Early Helladic II (Lerna III). The Early Helladic III settlement (Lerna IV) belonged to these invaders. It was from this Early Helladic III horizon that the embossed bone plaque and the clay anchor ornaments came (Hesperia 23 (1954), 22 pl. 9 g; 25 (1956), pl. 47 1-p; 26. (1957), pl. 42 e). It seems that the Middle Helladic period (Lerna V) began without any violent break, although it was marked by the appearance of new features, such as matt-painted pottery and the custom of burial inside the settlement. What is most important is the fact that certain features, which have hitherto been regarded as hallmarks of Middle Helladic, notably Gray Minyan ware and the use of the fast potter's wheel, had their origins in Early Helladic III. Caskey notes that the settlements at Tiryns and Asine in the Argolid, Ayios Kosmas near Athens, and perhaps Corinth, were all apparently destroyed at the end of Early Helladic II like Lerna. It is suggested that the invaders responsible for the destruction of these Early Helladic II settlements may have spoken a prototype of the later Greek language-may, that is, in a general sense have been the Greeks. There is, however, evidence for another destruction at the knd of the Early Helladic III period at Korakou (near Corinth) and Eutresis in Boeotia."; Caskey, p. 302.

"Elements that have been taken exclusively as marks of the Middle Bronze Age, gray ware of Minyan character and the potter's wheel for example, are now seen to have origins in the chronological period of Early Helladic III. K. Miiller was unable to find a clear break between Early Helladic and Middle Helladic at Tiryns. Destruction of Asine, Zygouries, and Aghios Kosmas at the end of Early Helladic III is no longer attested if the relative dating outlined above is valid. There was indeed a layer of ashes over debris of E.H. III at Korakou and, correspondingly, at Eutresis ; elsewhere the evidence of disaster at this time is exceedingly meager. It would be premature, and not within the scope of this paper, to discuss the questions of race and migration that are implicit in the proposals here advanced. Belief that the Middle Helladic people were ancestors of the "Mycenaeans," and hence of the later Greeks, is not affected. The question is, rather, whether the people of Early Helladic III may not have been closely akin to the Middle Helladics and thus also of direct or indirect parentage to the Mycenaean Greeks. Pre-Greek place names, the significance of which has been carefully considered by Blegen and others," would seem in any case to belong with the cultural stage which we here call Early Helladic II."Caskey, "The Early Helladic Period in the Argolid", p. 302.

"Elements that have been taken exclusively as marks of the Middle Bronze Age, gray ware of Minyan character and the potter's wheel for example, are now seen to have origins in the chronological period of Early Helladic III. K. Miiller was unable to find a clear break between Early Helladic and Middle Helladic at Tiryns. Destruction of Asine, Zygouries, and Aghios Kosmas at the end of Early Helladic III is no longer attested if the relative dating outlined above is valid. There was indeed a layer of ashes over debris of E.H. III at Korakou and, correspondingly, at Eutresis ; elsewhere the evidence of disaster at this time is exceedingly meager. It would be premature, and not within the scope of this paper, to discuss the questions of race and migration that are implicit in the proposals here advanced. Belief that the Middle Helladic people were ancestors of the "Mycenaeans," and hence of the later Greeks, is not affected. The question is, rather, whether the people of Early Helladic III may not have been closely akin to the Middle Helladics and thus also of direct or indirect parentage to the Mycenaean Greeks. Pre-Greek place names, the significance of which has been carefully considered by Blegen and others," would seem in any case to belong with the cultural stage which we here call Early Helladic II."

{{reflist|2}} --Carlog3 (talk) 23:25, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

[Entry was discovered while reading/learning about the Bronze Age cultures of Europe.]

A prima fascie inspection of this article shows that the users involved made objectively constructive edits while sustaining the entry's overall quality. But after having consulted the entry's history, I noticed a small number of quality-enhancing contributions (i.e. content clarification, additional sources/citations, updated entry navigation) that were "buried" under a preexisting series of COI-based altercations. The long absence of COI's has permitted the restoration of positive contributions and the formation of a "Stable Version".

As a disclaimer, the edits submitted towards creating this "Stable Version" are not to be construed as proof of any covert/overt affirmation of expertise as this particular subject matter is outside of my scholarly purview. Moreover, I have no inclination of involving myself in any of the "exciting" debates here. As of now, the entry's quality appears to fulfill the following criteria: 1) balanced content, 2) professional content, 3) simple/intelligible content.

And please feel free to make any further good faith edits towards improving the quality of current "Stable Version". Thank you.

[This statement is explicitly made for the sake of the record and not for the sake of debate.] No. 108 (talk) 17:11, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

CAn someone explain the difference between these? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.171.62.254 (talk) 20:06, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

:Late and not an expert, but I'll try.

• Minyan: I honestly don't know, but it seems they were either a real group or a presumed one. Either way the Greeks referred to them.
• Pelasgian: Supposedly the "proto-Greeks" who lived in that region before any true Greeks did. Possibly ancestors.
• Dorians: These were not ancestors nor progenitors to the Greeks, but rather a tribe that quickly subjugated a large part of them. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 10:17, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
• :A question what has to do this artical with yours are any connections? Let me know thanks!
• :According to Greek mythology and legendary prehistory of the Aegean region, the Minyans or Minyae(Greek: Μινύες, Minyes) were an autochthonous group inhabiting the Aegean region. The extent to which the prehistory of the Aegean world is reflected in literary accounts of legendary peoples, and the degree to which material culture can be securely linked to language-based ethnicity have been subjected to repeated revision.
• :John L. Caskey's interpretation of his archaeological excavations conducted in the 1950s linked the ethno-linguistic "Proto-Greeks" to the bearers of the Minyan (or Middle Helladic) culture. More recent scholars have questioned or amended his dating and doubted the linking of material culture to linguistic ethnicity. Ioannis1963 (talk) 12:23, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

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Μινύες is the Modern Greek name. The article should use the Ancient Greek name, Μινύαι. 24.189.107.131 (talk) 22:27, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected|Minyans|answered=yes}}

The article is currently quite confusing, as it focuses on archaeology but without the mythological context. Currently the lead paragraph is:

{{blockquote|

According to Greek mythology and legendary prehistory of the Aegean region, the Minyans or Minyae ({{langx|el|Μινύες}}, Minyes) were an autochthonous group inhabiting the Aegean region. The extent to which the prehistory of the Aegean world is reflected in literary accounts of legendary peoples, and the degree to which material culture can be securely linked to language-based ethnicity have been subjected to repeated revision.

}}

I suggest changing it to:

{{blockquote|

In Greek mythology, the Minyans or Minyae ({{langx|el|Μινύες}}, Minyes) were a group of legendary people who were the inhabitants of the city Orchomenus in Boeotia, and who were also associated with Thessaly.{{cite book |last1=Hard |first1=Robin |last2=Rose |first2=Herbert J. |title=The Routledge handbook of Greek mythology: partially based on H.J. Rose's A Handbook of Greek Mythology |date=2020 |publisher=Routledge, Taylor & Francis Group |location=London New York |isbn=9781138652606 |pages=557 |edition=Eighth}} They were named after their eponymous acestor, Minyas.

In archaeology, the term "Minyans" has been applied to the Minyan ware excavated from Orchomenus, and is used to refer to an autochthonous group of Proto-Greek speakers inhabiting the Aegean region, though the degree to which the material culture in the prehistory of the area can be securely linked to the legendary people or language-based ethnicity has been subjected to debate and repeated revision.

}}

LittleScroll (talk) 04:48, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

:{{Implemented}} Qcne (talk) 17:55, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}