Talk:Mixed cities#Neutrality tag

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Mixed cities}}

{{ping|BasilLeaf|Bolter21}} I believe you created this file together, which when zoomed in shows quite well the subdivisions of the eight mixed cities, where we can see the respective concentrations of the two groups in different parts of each city.

A study of this (and how and why these concentrations grew in the specific parts of each city) is at this widely cited 1996 article: {{cite journal | last=Falah | first=Ghazi | title=Living Together Apart: Residential Segregation in Mixed Arab-Jewish Cities in Israel | journal=Urban Studies | publisher=SAGE Publications | volume=33 | issue=6 | year=1996 | issn=0042-0980 | doi=10.1080/00420989650011627 | pages=823–857|ref=none}}

Could you let me know where you got the visual data from to show the modern population geography of these cities for your map? If we can show this modern population geography in close up form for the eight cities it would be a great addition to this article.

Onceinawhile (talk) 20:38, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

:I created the base map. The subdivisions within the cities were created by {{U|BasilLeaf}}.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:30, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

::Hi {{ping| BasilLeaf}} please could you let me know where you found the data for the visual representation of the respective demographic concentrations of the two groups in different parts of each city? Onceinawhile (talk) 11:12, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

I believe this article suffers from several neutrality issues:

:1. The scope of this article is too narrow. Even the article on "mixed cities" in the Hebrew Wikipedia looks at this phenomena on a global-scale, while this article ignores similar cases in other places in the world, and focuses only on the case of Israel.

:2. It adopts a one-sided terminology in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The use of the term "Palestinians in Israel" is used here to refer to all Arabs in Israel (Nazareth is described, for example, as a Palestinian Israeli city). This usage is quite fringe; a large part of the Arab citizens of Israel do not consider themselves Palestinians.

:3. It does not take into account other opinions, nor provides any criticism on the detailed arguments. The cities involved are seen by many as an example of coexistence between the Arab sector and the Jewish sector. This article places an exclusive emphasis on sources that describe an experience of segregation, but there are those who will contradict these claims.

I have just added a unneutral tag to this article. Please do not remove it until all the issues above are solved. Thanks. Tombah (talk) 20:53, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

:While article length on scope on other language Wikis can be instructive or indicative of trends, that is about it. Wikipedia is not a reliable source.

:On the linguistics of using Palestinian or Arab phraseology, both have their problems (calling people Arab like its an ethnicity just because they speak Arabic is just as opprobrious); the article should just follow the sourcing.

:On the last point, perhaps more could indeed be made of the way in which mixed cities have been used as a concept in service to certain perspectives. For instance, in a quote already embedded in the article, but not reflected in its text, Yara Hawari notes: {{tq|"The narrative of continuous historical coexistence and a mixed present-day reality in Haifa serves to support Israel's self-image as a pluralist and democratic society. In addition to giving the settler-colonial reality legitimacy, the existence of mixed urban spaces leads many to assume that under the current structures of power, a shared life is possible. The reality, however, is a space in which both Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews live mostly separately and with vastly different experiences."}} Iskandar323 (talk) 07:57, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

::I agree with tombah. Those issues need to be solved sources may use POV terminology but we shouldn't also such sources are clearly have bias and there is question if they WP:DUE at all. Shrike (talk) 14:25, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

:::{{ping|Tombah|Shrike}} your comments cannot be assessed or implemented because you have not brought any sources. The article as it stands reflects the sources in the article. If you have other sources, please add them in or raise them here. Per WP:TALK: {{tq|"Talk pages are not a place for editors to argue their personal point of view about a controversial issue. They are a place to discuss how the points of view of reliable sources should be included in the article, so that the end result is neutral. The best way to present a case is to find properly referenced material."}}. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:21, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

:::I removed the tag, if there are really problems with this article based in actual sourcing rather than personal opinion, then let's hear it. Otherwise the tag has no basis. Selfstudier (talk) 10:12, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

::::{{ping|Tombah|Shrike}} please confirm whether you have found any sources which could support your proposed amendments to the article? Onceinawhile (talk) 11:28, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

:::::My pleasure. Here are two sources showing the term is used for similar phenomena outside Israel as well: [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14616718.2013.809211 Possibilities of building a mixed city – evidence from Swedish cities] (Sweden), [https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/mono/10.4324/9781315869124/governance-ethnically-mixed-cities-sherrill-stroschein Governance in Ethnically Mixed Cities] (Iraq, Italy, France, Kyrgyzstan and others). And [https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ilan-Shdema-2/publication/304861697%20Social%20and%20Spatial%20Examination%20of%20Palestinian%20Employment%20in%20Israel%20in%20Single%20Municipalities/links/5e515585299bf1cdb93ffabe/Social-and-Spatial-Examination-of-Palestinian-Employment-in this] source describes three different levels of integration in Israeli mixed cities, which to complete the picture, we may want to present as well. I can provide more if needed. Tombah (talk) 15:23, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

::::::Please see the preceding move discussion for elaboration on why "mixed cities" (WP:PLURAL) is a phraseology strongly tied to Israel and distinct from the more generic discussion about the term "mixed city". While sources tying Israel's mixed cities to mixed city concepts elsewhere are valid, I don't see the link to neutrality. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:48, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

::::::{{ping|Tombah}} this article is about Jewish-Arab cities in Israel. If you would like to create or build out a specific article about the wider concept of multiculturalism or social integration, you are welcome to do so. If you think that the title of this article is wrong (perhaps you think that the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of "Mixed cities" is global multicultural cities rather than Jewish-Arab cities in Israel?), you are welcome to open a new WP:RM - the topic has already been discussed once in the completed RM above.

::::::As to the source you provided on the topic of this article, thank you. I have added it in. Two of Shdema's later articles are already cited here. I will add a few sentences to reflect the findings of his 2013 work.

::::::Please provide ALL the sources you have to reflect the POV you wish to include in the article. It should reflect all different POVs. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:20, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

:::::::While I think this article is more balanced, I am still not convinced that this subject merits a separate article. 'Mixed cities' refer to a wide variety of phenomena worldwide that share similar characteristics. It doesn't seem necessary to create another article for this; we should use the same article for all uses. I'm still looking forward to hear Shrike's opinion though. Tombah (talk) 08:58, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

::::::::{{ping|Tombah}} such a concern is dealt with by opening an AfD. The relevant policy for your concern is WP:GNG: {{tq|A topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list when it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.}} Please could you decide whether you wish to proceed with this today, as it has now been a month since you first raised this. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:05, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

See User_talk:Izzy_Borden#Mixed_Cities, regarding the latest re-addition / upcoming removal of the tag. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:06, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree this article has neutrality problems. It brings up removal of Arabs from Israel and does not speak to removal of Jews from communities on the west bank after 1948. The article ignores long term Jewish communities in the region. The article largely ignores Arab Israeli Citizens, many who live and work in Israel. This article seems to be an example of "how to lie with statistics" in that it presents statistics and then uses those statistics to support a claim that is not supported by the statistics. Saltysailor (talk) 16:32, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

:*Removal of Jews from the West Bank – these communities were not "mixed cities" (see here for a full list)

:*Long term Jewish communities – the first sentence in the main body says: "In the early 19th century, only Jerusalem, Safed and Tiberias had small yet significant minority Jewish populations living alongside the majority Arabs."

:* Arab Israelis – the whole article is about that topic

:This article follows the sources. If there are any other sources you would like to add, please do so.

:Onceinawhile (talk) 17:18, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Though Yara Hawari manuscript printed in academic press and has a PHD the problem she is not an active academic but works for advocacy organization. In my opinion her words are clearly WP:UNDUE and thus should be removed Shrike (talk) 14:30, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

:As to Hawari's credentials, her work was published in the Routledge Handbook on Middle East Cities, which Routledge describe as "an essential resource for students and academics interested in Geography, Regional and Urban Studies of the Middle East." Others have praised the Routledge book as offering "valuable critical perspectives on the complexities of cities in the Middle East and North Africa" and "a productive lens to understand the urban reality of the Middle East while engaging with the field of urban studies in general". If you disagree you can raise it at WP:RSN.

:Although the standard you are proposing is not part of our policies, if it was we would then also have to remove Michael Oren from Wikipedia, particularly from the Six-Day War article where his works make up about a third of the article's sourcing.

:Finally, WP:UNDUE is a question of relative weight in reliable sources. In order for your opinion to be assessed, you would need to bring some reliable sources to make your case - so far you have brought none.

:Onceinawhile (talk) 15:16, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

:[https://al-shabaka.org/profiles/yara-hawari/ Poppycock] can we also throw out everything from ADL because its an activist org? The way to deal with bias is to bring alternate sourcing with a different POV. Selfstudier (talk) 10:22, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

{{ping|Tombah|Shrike|Izzy Borden}} the statement {{tq|Israel has increased its investments in integrating Arabs into Israeli society in recent years. In 2020, the Jerusalem Municipality announced a master plan to develop East Jerusalem's Wadi al-Joz area, including plans for the development of Silicon Wadi. According to the municipality, the project aims to create 10,000 quality employment places in East Jerusalem.}} was added in good faith to ensure balance here. But I am not sure it is an appropriate example. Reading the JPost citation, and other articles on this topic, there is a strong view in the media that the intention of this investment is to drive Palestinians out of the area, not to encourage integration.

Any objections to replacing this with a less controversial example? Surely there are some examples somewhere of Israeli government expenditure to encourage true integration? Onceinawhile (talk) 08:45, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

:Why is this one not an appropriate example? This is an official Israeli policy aimed at integrating Palestinians into Israeli society in mixed cities. Yes, some have criticized this project, but I expect most projects targeting integration to have their supporters and opponents. Tombah (talk) 09:22, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

::{{ping|Tombah}} where did you read that its aim is integration? I looked for such a statement but couldn't find it. Either way, the problem is that if we keep it we would need to explain the "other perspective" (even JPost does) and it would get messy. I think you just want a clean example of a straightforward integration project - surely there are some which haven't attracted this type of criticism. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:39, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

::[https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-10-28/ty-article/.highlight/jerusalems-silicon-wadi-plans-might-be-just-a-pipe-dream/0000017f-f1f6-da6f-a77f-f9fe92e70000 Politics and Money Block East Jerusalem High-tech Quarter]

::[https://www.ir-amim.org.il/en/node/2725 Local Planning Committee Advances Controversial "Silicon Wadi" Plan]

::[http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=26760&CategoryId=34 Hi-tech expert, Arees Bishara: the Silicon Valley project in Jerusalem is aimed at weakening the economic, social and political status of Jerusalemites]

::The minimum descriptor for this plan would be "controversial" (even leaving aside the fact of occupation) and the likelihood of it ever happening "low", Israeli authorities say many things but when it actually happens few of those things occur unless it happens to be beneficial to the Israeli project, any benefit to the Palestinians that live in the area is likely to be de minimis or accidental. It is of note that at this point all that is happening involves the usual demolition, stop work and eviction procedures of Palestinians, that should tell you where this is going. Selfstudier (talk) 09:43, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

::"In occupied East Jerusalem, that Israel has unilaterally annexed, the Israeli state is now constructing a ‘Silicon Valley of East Jerusalem’: 200,000 square metres of high-tech facilities in the middle of the Palestinian neighbourhood of Wadi al-Joz. Situated next to the Old City, Wadi-al Joz has for long been the object of illegal Israeli settlement activities and expulsions of Palestinian families. If constructed, the ‘Silicon Valley of East Jerusalem’’ will tighten the grip of the Israeli state over the city and – according to the media reports – expel an estimated 200 Palestinian small-sized businesses from the area (Joffre, 2020)." The modern/colonial hell of innovation economy: future as a return to colonial mythologies, March 2022 https://doi.org/10.1080/14747731.2022.2048460 Selfstudier (talk) 09:54, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

:::I have been trying to find something positive to write, so we can ensure both sides are fairly represented. So I looked up this "Takadum" plan announced last year. Even the right-wing JPost [https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-707700 has a depressing tone on the whole thing]:

:::* "...the situation is worst in mixed Jewish-Arab cities. The poverty rate among Arabs in such cities has sky-rocketed, there is a decrease in male participation in the workforce, and fewer people are getting access to higher education. Almost half of the Arab children in mixed cities live in poverty, a rate an astounding four-and-half times greater than for Jewish kids... Events of May 2021 highlighted just this as Arabs and Jews clashed violently in mixed cities. While it was tensions surrounding Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem that sparked the violence, the frustration that had built up for years helped fuel it."

:::* "Relations between Jews and Arabs in Israel have always been tricky. Many Jews view the Arab population as a potential threat to the nation’s security. Arabs, who make up 21% of the 9.5 million-strong population, face widespread discrimination. Throughout the state’s history, they have very gradually integrated into society. But, as a whole, they are less educated and poorer, living in areas with neglected infrastructure and high crime."

:::They write in a hopeful style about this Takadum. But then [https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-707595 in an editorial] they say: "The five months allotted to the plan have passed, but it has yet to be brought before the government for approval. Is this because those who were given this task by the relevant ministries failed to meet the schedule? The answer is no. The professional staff of the Economic Development Authority (in the Ministry of Social Equality) and the Prime Minister’s Office carried out a serious work process, made real progress, including by collaborating and supporting the Israel Democracy Institute’s comprehensive research on the situation in mixed cities. Why, then, has the plan not yet been implemented? We can only surmise that the current political instability is derailing this process."

:::Onceinawhile (talk) 10:02, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

[https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rjlvknq8t This] might be a better example, and less controversial: {{tq|The government plan also allocates funding for Arab population in the mixed Arab and Jewish cities where racial riots broke out last May.}} Izzy Borden (talk) 23:29, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

:OK, I have done this. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:51, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

The first sentence of the article says "Mixed cities... is an Israeli term for the eight cities in which a significant number of both Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs reside." The first sentence of the third paragraph says "The eight mixed cities are the main places in Israel in which Jews and Palestinian Arabs encounter each other..." The article "Arab citizens of Israel" says "In Israel itself, Arab citizens are commonly referred to as Israeli-Arabs or simply as Arabs; international media often uses the term Arab-Israeli to distinguish Arab citizens of Israel from the Palestinian Arabs residing in the Palestinian territories." [emphasis added]

This article treats the two terms as interchangeable, without explanation. If "Palestinian Arabs" are those who reside in Palestinian territories, and "Israeli Arabs" refer to those who live in Israel, then shouldn't this article use the latter? Cigneous (talk) 05:40, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

:Checking the sources: the first two sources, which support the first sentence, simply use the term "Arabs". Many of the other sources also seem to use it. Isn't "Arabs" alone sufficient? Cigneous (talk) 05:52, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

::Hi {{ping|Cigneous}} good question and I agree we should tidy this up. The situation is complicated - the term "Arabs" is seen negatively by a meaningful proportion of the population group, but it is the preferred Israeli government term. See Palestinian citizens of Israel#Terminology. Many sources use alternate descriptors:

::* {{cite web | title=Israel's 'mixed' cities: Palestinians and Jews struggle to rebuild trust - 22.05.2021 | website=DW.COM | url=https://www.dw.com/en/israels-mixed-cities-struggle-to-rebuild-trust/a-57632071 | ref=none}}

::* {{cite journal | last=Karlinsky | first=Nahum | title=Revisiting Israel’s Mixed Cities Trope | journal=Journal of Urban History | publisher=SAGE Publications | volume=47 | issue=5 | date=2021-08-09 | issn=0096-1442 | doi=10.1177/00961442211029835 | pages=1103–1129|quote= The article traces the origin of the term to pre-State, Zionist discourse, which denounced Arab Jewish “mixing,” situating it between “pure” Zionist and “foreign” Palestinian Arab spaces. | ref=none}}

::* {{cite web | last=Dornschneider | first=Stephanie | title=Analysis - Can Jews and Palestinians live peacefully in Israel? The data on mixed neighborhoods says yes. | website=Washington Post | date=2021-06-04 | url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/06/04/can-jews-palestinians-live-peacefully-israel-data-mixed-neighborhoods-says-yes/ | ref=none}}

::Onceinawhile (talk) 06:04, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

:::(I'm certainly out of my league in this matter - just stopping by at a random article which appeared on the main page.) The DW article appears to use "Arab" and "Palestinian" interchangeably. However it never uses either ""Palestinian Arabs" nor "Israeli Arabs". Not sure what to make of Karlinsky - does he use "Palestinian Arab" primarily? The Washington Post article uses "Palestinian Israelis". Maybe the best practice is to use whichever term the immediate source is using.

:::While I'm here, can I raise a "meta" point? The lead says, "Mixed cities ...is an Israeli term for ...". That means this article is about the Israeli term, rather than the eight cities. If that's it, then the article should focus on how the term is used and by whom, in what context. If it's about the demographic phenomenon, then it is a broader topic which would better allow for NPOV. So instead, maybe the lead should be more like "the Mixed Cities are eight cities in Israel... "

:::It appears that like only a single source for the article has an Arab affiliation [Ghazi Falah?]. It's probably not that bad. Mixed cities & mixed sources? Anyway, not my topic so I'll leave it to you and others. Glad there's an article on this interesting matter. Cigneous (talk) 06:31, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

:The recent Amnesty report has detailed coverage of this, beginning with a definition of “mixed cities” (their quotes) as "Israeli cities with mixed Jewish and Palestinian populations". The Palestinian citizens of Israel are the great majority of the Arab citizens of Israel, also see Talk:Palestinian citizens of Israel#Amnesty. I think we should go with PcoI along with an explanatory footnote, something like that.Selfstudier (talk) 09:22, 11 July 2022 (UTC)