Talk:Mordvins#Ethnicity with no Common language and no common ancestry

Something is fishy with article content.

• I deleted the section "Origin of the term" which said nothing about "origin of the term" but a huge cut-an-paste [https://books.google.com/books?id=sJtjEAAAQBAJ from book].
• Section "Erzya-Moksha Autonomy" somehow popped to the top, where it is clearly misplaced.

I suspect this resulted from edits of Numulunj pilgae in 2022, but I have no interest in this subject, so please someone else take a look into page history. - Altenmann >talk 08:17, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

• This short discussion may be useful for context: Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 99#User:Numulunj pilgae. That user has been pushing strange fringe theories in this topic area. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 17:15, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• yeah i came across this article a few days ago and... it's pretty difficult to read. the citations are all over the place, there's no sense to the order of sections, and it's hard to tell which sources are reliable and which ones aren't because they're so unclear. i'm going to have a go at a bit of cleanup & finding some higher-quality sources. i'll drop whatever i find back here. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 18:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• I removed huge chunks of chaotic dubious unreferenced text. --Altenmann >talk 18:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

looking closely at the sources used currently, i think the majority of them are probably iffy (poor-quality, outdated, difficult to verify etc.), but some look good. below are some sources i've found that seem promising & are not used in the article currently. i've accessed them through The Wikipedia Library; a few are open access.

• {{cite book |last=Ball |first=Warwick |chapter=European Nations from the Steppe: Nomads and Early Medieval Europe |title=The Eurasian Steppe: People, Movements, Ideas |year=2021 |publisher=Edinburgh University Press |pages=222-251 |doi=10.1515/9781474488075-014 |isbn=9781474488075 |oclc=1312726362 }}
• {{cite journal |last=de Cordier |first=Bruno |date=1997 |title=The Finno‐Ugric peoples of Central Russia: Opportunities for emancipation or condemned to assimilation? |journal=Central Asian Survey |volume=16 |issue=4 |pages=587-609 |doi=10.1080/02634939708401013 |jstor= |issn=0263-4937 }}
• {{cite journal |last=Iurchenkov |first=Valerii |date=2001 |title=The Mordvins: Dilemmas of Mobilization in a Biethnic Community |journal=Nationalities Papers |volume=29 |issue=1 |pages=85-95 |doi=10.1080/00905990120036394 |issn=1465-3923 }}
• {{cite journal |last=Kowalev |first=Viktor |date=2000 |title=Power and Ethnicity in the Finno-Ugric Republics of the Russian Federation: The Examples of Komi, Mordovia, and Udmurtia |journal=International Journal of Political Economy |volume=30 |issue=3 |pages=81-100 |doi=10.1080/08911916.2000.11644017 |issn=1558-0970 }}
• {{cite journal |last=Lallukka |first=Seppo |date=2001 |title=Finno-Ugrians of Russia: Vanishing Cultural Communities? |journal=Nationalities Papers |volume=29 |issue=1 |pages=9-39 |doi=10.1080/00905990120036367 |issn=1465-3923 }}
• {{cite journal |last=Mikkor |first=Marika |date=2000 |title=On The Erza-Mordvinian Birth Customs in Sabajevo and Povodimovo Villages |journal=Folklore: Electronic Journal of Folklore |volume=13 |pages=111-123 |doi= |url=https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=54343 |issn=1406-0949 }}
• {{cite journal |last=Nurgayanova |first=Nelya |last2=Karkina |first2=Svetlana |last3=Gluzman |first3=Aleksandr |date=2017 |title=Turkic Traditions In Musical Culture Of Mordovian-Karatai Ethnic Group |journal=Astra Salvensis |volume=5 |issue=10 |pages=205-212 |doi= |url=https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=606606 |issn=2393-4727 }}
• {{cite journal |last=Pusztay |first=János |date=2018 |title=The Future of the Finno-Ugric Languages of Russia |journal=Russian Studies Review |issue=162 |pages=79-98 |url=https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=712602 |doi= |issn=0137-298X }}
• {{cite journal |last=Pusztay |first=János |date=2015 |title=The Condition of the Mordvin Languages as Suggested by the Results of the Terminological Dictionary Project 'Terminologia Scholaris' |journal=Linguistica Uralica |volume=51 |issue=4 |pages=278-289 |doi=10.3176/lu.2015.4.05 |doi-access=free |issn=1736-7506 }}
• {{cite book |last=Raun |first=Alo |chapter=The Mordvin Language |editor-last=Sinor |editor-first=Denis |title=The Uralic Languages: Description, History and Foreign Influences |year=1988 |publisher=Brill |pages=96-110 |doi=10.1163/9789004492493_008 |isbn=9789004492493 |oclc=604285125 }}
• {{cite journal |last=Romaniello |first=Matthew |date=2007 |title=Mission Delayed: The Russian Orthodox Church after the Conquest of Kazan |journal=Church History |volume=76 |issue=3 |pages=511-540 |doi=10.1017/S0009640700500560 |issn=1755-2613 }}
• {{cite journal |last=Saarinen |first=Sirkka |date=2001 |title=The Myth of a Finno-Ugrian Community in Practice |journal=Nationalities Papers |volume=29 |issue=1 |pages=41-52 |doi=10.1080/00905990120036376 |issn=1465-3923 }}
• {{cite journal |last=Taagepera |first=Rein |date=2001 |title=Eastern Finno-Ugrian Cooperation and Foreign Relations |journal=Nationalities Papers |volume=29 |issue=1 |pages=181-199 |doi=10.1080/00905990120036457 |issn=1465-3923 }}
• {{cite book |last=Van Pareren |first=Remco |chapter=Areal Features in the Volga-Kama Region: On Some Non-lexical Turkic Influences in Mordvin |editor-last=Hasselblatt |editor-first=Cornelius |editor-last2=Houtzagers |editor-first2=Peter |editor-last3=Van Pareren |editor-first3=Remco |title=Language Contact in Times of Globalization |year=2011 |publisher=Rodopi |pages=251-265 |doi=10.1163/9789401200431_013 |isbn=9789401200431 |oclc=729167171 }}
• {{cite journal |last=Werth |first=Paul |date=1999 |title=Armed Defiance and Biblical Appropriation: Assimilation and the Transformation of Mordvin Resistance, 1740–1810 |journal=Nationalities Papers |volume=27 |issue=2 |pages=247-270 |doi=10.1080/009059999109055 |issn=1465-3923 }}
• {{cite journal |last=Werth |first=Paul |date=2003 |title=Coercion and Conversion: Violence and the Mass Baptism of the Volga Peoples, 1740-55 |journal=Kritika |volume=4 |issue=3 |pages=543-569 |doi=10.1353/kri.2003.0048 |issn=1538-5000 }}
• {{cite journal |last=Zamyatin |first=Konstantin |date=2013 |title=Official Status As a Tool of Language Revival? A Study of the Language Laws in Russia’s Finno-Ugric Republics |journal=Journal of Ethnology & Folkloristics |volume=7 |issue=1 |pages=125-153 |doi= |url=https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=118136 |issn=2228-0987 }}
• {{cite book |last=Zeleneev |first=Aleksej |chapter=Distribution of Mordvins: Their Ethnic and Political History in the 13th–15th Centuries |editor-last=Bocharov |editor-first=Sergei |editor-last2=Sitdikov |editor-first2=Ayrat |title=The Genoese Gazaria and the Golden Horde |year=2015 |publisher=Stratum Publishing House; High Anthropological School University |pages=377-382 |isbn=9789975427289 |oclc=1402612737 |chapter-url=https://www.ceeol.com/search/chapter-detail?id=796388 |language=ru}}

here are some broader-topic books which mention Mordvins, and would be useful for situating context:

• {{cite book |editor-last=Bakró-Nagy |editor-first=Marianne |editor-last2=Laakso |editor-first2=Johanna |editor-last3=Skribnik |editor-first3=Elena |title=The Oxford Guide to the Uralic Languages |year=2022 |publisher=Oxford University Press |isbn=9780191821516 |oclc=1257402924 }} (chapters 4, 5, 23)
• {{cite book |last=Hartley |first=Janet |title=The Volga |year=2021 |publisher=Yale University Press |isbn=9780300256048 |oclc=1225354430 }}
• {{cite book |last=Romaniello |first=Matthew |title=The Elusive Empire: Kazan and the Creation of Russia, 1552–1671 |year=2012 |publisher=University of Wisconsin Press |isbn=9780299285135 |oclc=780141955 }}
• {{cite book |last=Werth |first=Paul |title=At the Margins of Orthodoxy: Mission, Governance, and Confessional Politics in Russia's Volga-Kama Region, 1827–1905 |year=2018 |publisher=Cornell University Press |isbn=9781501711695 |oclc=1080550386 }}

perhaps i will come back to this at some point and rewrite it myself, but if someone does it first then hopefully this is helpful. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 01:31, 31 October 2024 (UTC)