Talk:Nikkie de Jager

Nikkie came out as transgender and this should be included in the personal life section, not the introduction. She also did not use any terms such as "male to female" or "assigned male at birth" so even if these seem like logical assumptions to you they are unsourced assumptions. We also do not need to summarize the entire video, just the key point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Heretohelp1432 (talk • contribs) 20:35, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

She mentioned in the video transitioning while on Youtube as well as prior to starting it. Please refrain from writing incorrect information. Heretohelp1432 (talk) 20:57, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

The name stated in the born column (together with place and date of birth) is factually inaccurate. This person is now called Nikkie, but was born as [redacted]. Timmie1606 (talk) 22:23, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

I can only find dutch sources for this, which doesn't seem to fit an english wikipedia, but alas: https://www.bndestem.nl/brabant/oud-docent-nikkie-tutorials-iedereen-wist-dat-nikkie-thuis-een-jurk-aantrok-en-met-poppen-speelde~ae055907/ Timmie1606 (talk) 14:41, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

: I can read Dutch but your source (gossip) is not reliable. Also it may not be relevant as Nikkie was never known to the public under that birth name. Not sure if Nikkie is the legal name, but it is the stage name for a fact. If you have sources that the legal name is not Nikkie than you should provide those. It's a gender neutral name by the way... 89.200.15.69 (talk) 15:23, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

::Nikkie was never known by her previous name, it is not needed in the lead or in the Infobox. Also, to the editor above me, Nikkie is a woman. Please use the correct pronouns, when discussing or editing this article. Alex (talk) 15:32, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

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::: Actually the Wikipedia:Manual of Style was a good link but it should have been posted on the talk page rather than reverting the discussion Timmie1606 started. Seems that on the project page we are to refer to the person by the gender he/she/it identifies and not by the legal gender (which can be changed) or biological gender (which will always remain XY or XX). By reverting a discussion User_talk:Eurocave could actually start an edit war. The normal thing would have been to refer to the Manual of Style rather than making aggressive reverts. 89.200.15.69 (talk) 15:37, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

::: (After edit conflict) This is a talk page. On here you can refer to people by their known legal gender rather than the gender they choose for themselves. The Manual of Style says you cannot do that on the project page, which I did not know earlier. 89.200.15.69 (talk) 15:40, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

:::: This discussion should be closed and the deadnaming and incorrect pronouns redacted. It's not the place of every LGBT BLP talk page for us to beg people to read Wikipedia's MOS and stop calling them names. cave (talk) 15:57, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

::::You should still use the pronouns that are used on the article, both out of respect for the subject, and also to help pevent confusion. LakesideMiners^{Come Talk To Me!} 16:13, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

:::::: Nobody is calling anyone names here. If there was a reliable source for the birth name and if it was relevant then it should be considered. But it is simply not as long as we don't know if Nikkie is just a stage name or actually the legal name of this youtuber. Many other youtubers have their legal name mentioned on their project page. Some former teacher violating a persons privacy is nothing but gossip, it is not a reliable source (it is behind a paywall btw). If you want people to use a certain gender on the project page you can simply tell them about the Wikipedia:Manual of Style rather than approaching them with aggression. Asking them to read it is very different from accusing them of vandalism. Wikipedia is not the place for activism.

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:::::: You could ask a moderator to archive a section of a talk page, but you don't simple edit other peoples comments just because you don't agree with the pronouns they use. You don't correct grammar or typos on a talk page either, cause this is not a project page. 89.200.15.69 (talk) 17:10, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

::::::: Please ask a moderator to look at this discussion if you feel that it should be closed or archived. Closing or reverting an active discussion without even given the editor who started it a change to respond is disruptive to Wikipedia. Being offended does not equal having reached consensus. 89.200.15.69 (talk) 17:10, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

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I have removed the birth name from the infobox as it was uncited an claimed here to be incorrect (per WP:BLP). Consensus regarding transgender people is that we should always refer to them using their current pronouns for all stages of their life unless they have expressed a clear desire otherwise. That applies everywhere on Wikipedia. Consensus regarding previous names of transgender people is that they should not normally be mentioned unless they were notable under that name or it is otherwise relevant to their notability. A quick reading of this article suggests that does not apply to this article, but I have not looked in detail. See Wikipedia:Non-English for details about policies regarding sources in other languages, but in a nutshell English sources are preferred where available and of equal or better quality to others but non-English ones are perfectly acceptable as long as they are reliable. Thryduulf (talk) 18:11, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

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