Talk:Odysseus#Edit warring

Where would be the best place to discuss Odysseus' murder of Astyanax as described in the Iliupersis? TNstingray (talk) 14:41, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

I feel this page needed the accurate information that Odysseus’ lineage to Hermes is not connected in Homer’s Odyssey, and was only added later via the Roman poet Ovid due to Autolycus’ connection to Hermes through being blessed and a supplier/friend of him. If someone could make the contribution fit into the page nicely, that would be appreciated. Greeksilly (talk) 18:06, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:Adding on, a source for this is “Homer. The Odyssey with an English Translation by A.T. Murray, PH.D. in two volumes. Cambridge, MA., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1919” https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D19%3Acard%3D361 Greeksilly (talk) 18:28, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

::Cleaned up. I'm consulting a classics editor I've worked with before on the proper citation. I'm also wondering where the blessing is in the cited page--is it the absence of a patrilineal relationship that we're looking for? Iseult ^Δx talk to me 18:48, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:::It is simply the only mention of Autolycus’ connection to Hermes in Homer’s work. The blessing is the skill bestowed upon him - seen at [395]. Hermes befriended him - rather than there being a genealogical relation. Greeksilly (talk) 18:57, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Also, thank you for the cleanup. I am new to Wikipedia editing :) Greeksilly (talk) 18:58, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:As you say, Autolycus isn't the son of Hermes in the Odyssey, and so Odysseus isn't descended from him in the poem. There existed genealogies which placed Hermes as Autolycus's father long before Ovid, though! The earliest I'm aware of is from the Catalogue of Women (c. 6th century BC), which gives Philonis as the mother; see Merkelbach & West, p. 41 for the fragment. The same genealogy comes up around a century later in Pherecydes (5th century BC), see FGrHist 3 F120.

:As to Hermes not being the father of Autolycus in the Odyssey, I'm not entirely sure whether mentioning this is necessary, but using the passage from the Odyssey itself isn't sufficient in terms of sourcing. An acceptable secondary source for the claim would be Gantz, p. 109, though he doesn't mention it in the context of Odysseus (and, again, I'm not entirely sure it needs to be made explicit here). – Michael Aurel (talk) 21:32, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you for the secondary source and correcting me on the first mention!

::The reason I've wanted to have this specifically sourced here is due to a lot of discourse on whether or not they're related specifically in Homer's Odyssey due to a new piece of media featuring the subject matter was released, (Epic: The Musical). There've been a lot of claims of them being related specifically in this text, and so I wanted to add this for new readers who may infer that from word of mouth. Thank you for researching further into the matter for me and adding that second source! Greeksilly (talk) 03:30, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

:::No worries. I've added Gantz as a source and rephrased things accordingly. – Michael Aurel (talk) 22:23, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Absolute legend. Thank you! Greeksilly (talk) 02:37, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

In the second paragraph it states that Odysseus is the father of Telegonus but the link for Telegonus leads to a list of people named Telegonus which I believe is unnecessary as this page refers to a specific Telegonus. To push this point further, the info box also refers to Telegonus and links to the specific Telegonus being Odysseus' son. Please change the link in the second paragraph. Ceratosaur635 (talk) 19:06, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:Fixed. – Michael Aurel (talk) 23:03, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

In Odysseus’ genealogy section, it lists Arcesius as the grandson of Aeolus; this is false. Following the links provided, you can see that Arcesius is the great-grandson of Aeolus. Which makes Odysseus the great-great-grandson of Aeolus. This may have been trying to suggest that Cephalus was Aeolus’ grandson (which is correct), in which case the language is confusing and the sentence may need reworded.

And on the topic of Cephalus, there seems to be two pages for him? The one provided for him as a link on this page goes to a short paragraph that lists Hermes as his father (?). But if you follow the link provided on his name on Arcesius’ page, you will find a much better article that is more specific to, and more obviously about, the Cephalus that is the grandson of Aeolus. It is also more in depth. That is probably the article that should be linked here rather than the shorter one that is currently there. 2601:248:8481:1B20:3C50:A4EF:CD5A:E165 (talk) 11:29, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:*Odysseus would be the great-great-great-grandson of Aeolus, seeing as Arcesius is HIS grandfather. Apologies for that mistake!

:2601:248:8481:1B20:3C50:A4EF:CD5A:E165 (talk) 11:40, 24 May 2025 (UTC)