Talk:Orthodox Church#Strongly reducing the list

{{ping|BD2412}} I agree with {{ping|Somerby}}'s [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orthodox_Church&diff=1055709916&oldid=1051477924 change]; I think [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orthodox_Church&oldid=1055809350 this version] should be restored. Veverve (talk) 23:53, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

: A disambiguation page requires that the terms be unrelated. "Orthodox Church" is not at all an ambiguous term like "Mercury" (which can be a planet, or a god, or a car); it is a collection of related concepts that can be presented as an index. BD2412 T 23:57, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

::Well, it can designate three different Christian denominations, so I think the page should be a DAB. Veverve (talk) 23:59, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

::: Nonetheless, these are not unrelated concepts. Note, also, that per Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Preparation, you must fix the incoming links to the page before changing an existing title to a disambiguation page. BD2412 T 00:56, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

::::They are not urelated in the same sense that Old Catholic Church and Catholic Church are not unrelated. Both are different Christian denominations who happen to share most of their name and an important adjective. As for fixing all the hyperlinks, can we not leave it to those who use specific tools to do that over the years after we turn the page into a DAB? It might be a bit unorthodox, but such a huge task might justify it. Veverve (talk) 01:49, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

::::: Presumably, the disambiguation of readily confused topics would best be undertaken by editors with knowledge of those topics. In any case, the guideline states the preference for this work to be done before the page is moved or reconfigured. BD2412 T 02:34, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

:::::With a page like Mercury, where the topics are in different subject areas, there's a case for leaving disambiguation to the disambiguators. It may be considered impolite, like cooking a meal and leaving a pile of pans for others to clean, but there's a case for it. However, if the alternatives are so similar that only an expert can reliably distinguish them, as here, it's better for those experts to do the work. Certes (talk) 12:13, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Coming here from WP:DPL, this is my take:

• whether to make this a DAB or keep it an SIA should be decided on its own merits. I'd recommend starting a more comprehensive discussion and asking for input from e.g. WP:CHRISTIANITY.
• even if the guideline prefers links to be fixed before creating the dabpage, that would obviously be an unnecessarily excruciating task, since the tools only work on disambiguation pages. However, it's nonsense to then just leave the task to "those who use" those tools; it's exceedingly simple to install and use DisamAssist, and while this kind of cleanup is always a team effort, I would expect those proposing the change to take the lead. Lennart97 (talk) 09:31, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

• I'm trying now to disambiguate all the links. After I finish, I will change a title to a disambiguation page. --Northumber (talk) 17:45, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
• : {{re|Northumber}}, It's already been suggested a couple of times at least that you open an Rfc here, to see if this should have been turned into a disambig page. In this edit at the article, you claimed that there is consensus here on this Talk page for turning the article into a DAB page, but I'm afraid I don't see that consensus. My initial sense is it should not be a DAB page, based on {{u|BD2412}} and {{u|Certes}}, and I can see the point of having it be a set index article.
• : I'll notify the project at least so we can get some more input, perhaps if there's a clear consensus it won't be necessary to have the Rfc, and you can then carry on with what you were doing. But perhaps you could hold off making any more changes to links to Orthodox Church until we get some feedback from other editors here? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 08:25, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

: Listed at: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard. Mathglot (talk) 08:34, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

• Comment:Encyclopedic title space need to be reserved for encyclopedic articles. That is primary job of encyclopedia. I am strongly opposed to giving encyclopedic title space to disambiguation pages where allocating to encyclopedic article is possible. Disambiguation titles need to be noted in bracket as disambiguation pages.

: Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 09:32, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

::Our policy is to give the base name to the primary topic if there is one. The primary topic here may be a short broad-concept article on the Orthodox Church[es], prominently linking the several specific churches which use the title after describing features shared by them all. That might serve the reader better than a plain list such as a disambiguation page or set index article. Certes (talk) 15:19, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

:::As I explained above, there is no broad topic this page covers. Also, as {{ping|wbm1058}} noted in April 2021, the word "Orthodox Church" is used very inconsistently throughout Wikipedia which makes the DAB neessary. Veverve (talk) 16:03, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

• Certes, as far as I know there is no {{tq|feature shared by}} Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Churches and Orthodox Presbyterian Church, only the title similarity. The BCA is Eastern Christianity but it includes not only Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Churches but also Eastern Catholic Churches and Eastern Protestant churches --Northumber (talk) 16:43, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
• : A broad-concept article would probably best sit at the title {{no redirect|Orthodox churches}}. Feel free to usurp that redirect to start such an article, or use Draft:Orthodox churches to get started if you wish to avoid an edit war before your new article is "ready for prime time" (just ask me or another admin to help you move your draft over the top of the redirect). Orthodox Presbyterian Church would not be part of the broad concept because that's a Presbyterian church, not an Orthodox church. As to the "feature shared by" the other two, look at their history and how they were started. But perhaps Orthodoxy already covers this. That article says "{{tq|The Eastern Orthodox Church adheres to the orthodoxy portrayed mainly in the first seven ecumenical councils, while the Oriental Orthodox Churches define their orthodoxy as based on the first three ecumenical councils alone.}}" So maybe retarget {{no redirect|Orthodox churches}} to Orthodoxy. This page should remain a disambiguation, and I'm happy to see that someone else picked up the ball I intentionally dropped back on April Fools Day (in the last section above). "Orthodox Church" is the ambiguous proper name of a specific church, and not a broad concept which would be indicated by lower-casing "church". – wbm1058 (talk) 17:18, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
• ::The thing is, each end every denomination of all religions (and some Marxists, but they were never referred to as a "church" so they are not relevant) considers itself to follow in its own way Orthodoxy, i.e. the right doctine when it comes to religion. Therefore, I would strongly disadvise {{tq|retarget[ing] {{no redirect|Orthodox churches}} to Orthodoxy}}. Veverve (talk) 18:28, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
• :::But not every denomination makes Orthodoxy a defining concept; i.e. part of their name. Orthodoxy is a broader concept; the applicable section is {{section link|Orthodoxy#Christianity}}. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:39, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
• :::: Distilling some of the main points in this section and the #Disambiguation section above, I'm making a proposal for how to proceed in the section below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mathglot (talk • contribs) 01:45, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Proposal: we should end up with both a Set index article, and a disambig page. Here's how I think that should happen:

There should be both a disambig (probably at the current title, but not with the current rev history), and a Set index article, probably with the title Orthodox churches and retaining the article history of this page. If accepted, this would mean:

1. Current article WP:MOVEs to {{no redirect|Orthodox churches}} restored from some previous rev (possibly rev. 1055809487 of 23:03, 17 November 2021) and expanded as a SIA from that point (this blows away a redirect with no important history)
2. A brand new disambig page is created at the name 'Orthodox Church' (which would be available after #1), with content pasted from rev 1060493996 of this article (or similar)

Some advantages of this scheme, are:

• the SIA retains most of the content, and the history of how it got there
• the SIA does *not* have to wait for any links in other articles to be fixed first; it can be done now.
• the DAB creation in #2 can be performed at one's leisure, after due dilegence has been done with links while #1 is going on, after it, or whenever.

File:Historical Branches and Sects of Christianity.png]]

Regarding the development of the SIA, I think it should evolve beyond where it ever was here, and not be a simple list, and could be developed in various ways. My first thought is a hierarchical list somewhat like the #Other section in rev. 1055809487 (here), but with each entry listed having a brief description (a sentence to a paragraph) as a list article would have—which is fine and within bounds for a SIA—and wikilinked to the main article. (Or, for paragraph-long items, with {{tl|Main}} or {{tl|Further}} links at section top.) It should also contain one (or more) of the hierarchical denomination charts available, such as :c:File:Major denominational groups and heresies within Christianity.svg, :c:File:Historical Branches and Sects of Christianity.png, :c:File:Christianity_major_branches.svg or any of the many diagrams available in Commons. As an intro section at the top, I'd paste a copy of {{section link|Orthodoxy#Christianity}} (per Wbm1058's suggestion), possibly thinned a bit.

I'm shamelessly stealing most of these ideas from those who have contributed before me, so thanks for that; I see my role here as organizing or focusing the best of those into a concrete proposal we can discuss. I'm not structuring this as an Rfc because I see this as still in the brainstorming stage, and it may morph based on discussion. If an Rfc is needed (hoping it won't), we can figure out what it should be about and how to word it later. Mathglot (talk) 01:44, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

:Not sure who's watching, so apologies if this notification is unwanted:{{ping|wbm1058|Veverve||Certes|Bookku|BD2412|Lennart97|Omnipaedista}} Mathglot (talk) 01:57, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

:: Is there really a collection of ambiguous topics here, rather than variations on a specific theme? BD2412 T 02:01, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

::: {{re|BD2412}} I understand your comment to mean, "yes to a SIA, but no to a disambig page", is that correct? If so, I don't have an answer, but interested to see what others say. Mathglot (talk) 02:04, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

:::: It's really a question, not a comment. If there is a real ambiguity that can be articulated here, a disambiguation page may be appropriate (presuming, also, that there is no primary topic of the term). BD2412 T 02:10, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

:::::I'm content with the current simple dab page. One could argue that "Orthodox Church" is a broad concept but trying to force a matter of religion to be a broad concept is asking for trouble. The Eastern people will claim that "Orthodox Church" unambiguously means what we call Eastern and that's the primary topic. The Oriental church objects to that. We've been there, done that with trying to force a primary topic. Both churches will object to a broad-concept article that risks conflating each with the other. Our broad concept is Orthodoxy; that's been stable. Now as to resurrecting the "set index" we had here, I think that's another fork of the old list articles that were merged away. See my comment below. – wbm1058 (talk) 02:33, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

::

::Your proposal confuses me. Keep it simple. I don't think what you're aiming for is what we conventionally call a "set index", and I don't think you should label it as such. There was a List of Orthodox denominations but that was SPLIT to List of Eastern Orthodox denominations, List of Oriental Orthodox denominations, and Orthodox Church organization and Communion of the Western Orthodox Churches. – wbm1058 (talk) 02:08, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

:I think even if there was ever a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, the page should be a DAB, because

:1) most readers do not know anything about those Byzantine (no pun intended) disputes between churches,

:2) most WP users do not know anything either; sometimes, they will read an article about e.g. how X% of the population is "Orthodox Christians" in an area (examples of media caling E. Orthodox and O. Orthodox "Orthodox": [https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/28/ethiopia-is-an-outlier-in-the-orthodox-christian-world/] (O. O.), [https://www.politico.eu/article/russian-orthodox-christians-lose-faith-in-vladimir-putin/] (E. O.)) and will link the word to "Orthodox church" which is a problem. I had made the same argument for the RM at Talk:Code of Canon Law#Requested move 23 February 2021. Veverve (talk) 07:53, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

:Yes to a disambiguation page. The experts feel that a BCA is inappropriate, so a dab is second choice. A SIA is for when a dab wouldn't work because some entries have no WP:DABMENTION. I don't think we need that here. If we do, then it should be clearly labelled as something like List of orthodox churches, with the dab at Orthodox Church and synonyms redirecting to the dab. If we're considering a SIA because some church articles have a doubtful claim to a dab entry, put them in See also. Certes (talk) 12:24, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

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The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Orthodox_churches&redirect=no List of Orthodox churches] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at {{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 14#List of Orthodox churches}} until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 14:17, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

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The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Orthodox_Churches&redirect=no List of Orthodox Churches] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at {{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 14#List of Orthodox Churches}} until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 14:25, 14 April 2023 (UTC)