Talk:Planet Nine#rfc 18375E4

The article says: {{tq|Michael Medford and Danny Goldstein, graduate students at the University of California, Berkeley, are also examining archived data using a technique that combines images taken at different times. Using a supercomputer they will offset the images to account for the calculated motion of Planet Nine, allowing many faint images of a faint moving object to be combined to produce a brighter image.}} -- The source for this is from 2017, so this is almost certainly outdated. I suggest to either update (with the results of their search), rephrase (use past tense), or remove the sentence as irrelevant (do we really care what some students planned to maybe do, but didn't, half a decade ago?). Renerpho (talk) 12:59, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

:It all should be in past tense.Slatersteven (talk) 13:04, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

:I couldn't find published results in my search, but maybe somebody else could. We should not assume they completed these tasks. I recommend deleting this sentence if a published result is not found. Jehochman ^Talk 00:43, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

::I'd even go as far as to suggest to remove the whole article. This is all WAY too speculative to warrant such a long article for something nobody ever observed ... 2A02:8388:1600:A200:891:599B:CAEB:E16C (talk) 22:47, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

:::Couldn't disagree more. The scientists studying these phenomena know much more than us and the sources are high quality. Leitmotiv (talk) 02:53, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

::::I am not entirely convinced. We can see numerous suns all over the place, yet nobody could detect "Planet Nine". That seems weird to me. 2A02:8388:1600:A200:CCD4:74A1:3FC0:A532 (talk) 19:03, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

:::::Suns emit light, so they are easier to see than planets, which only reflect light. --Hob Gadling (talk) 03:47, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

::::That something was written by an expert is not a reason to mention it in a Wikipedia article. See WP:RS. --Hob Gadling (talk) 03:47, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

New aticle on arxiv shows that many of the eTNOs are affected by Neptune resonaces [https://arxiv.org/abs/2208.02248 Orbital dynamics landscape near the most distant known trans-Neptunian objects]. Agmartin (talk) 14:38, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Is anyone’s still searching for Planet Nine or have they given up? Jehochman ^Talk 10:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

:This is a serious question. The article needs an update about recent efforts (perhaps). Jehochman ^Talk 10:28, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

:Still ongoing. Just no paper on it recently. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 10:28, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

::I see some Feb 2023 articles suggesting that it may be possible to search for heat signatures of P9 satellites. Is this worth adding? What about the proposed JWST survey? Jehochman ^Talk 10:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

:::What are you referring to as "the proposed JWST survey"?

:::I see [https://www.popsci.com/could-there-really-be-9th-planet-that-we-didnt-know-about/ one source] says "Jim Green, director of NASA’s Planetary Science Division ... is optimistic that if Planet X is out there, NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope, expected to launch into space in 2018, could find it. The large infrared telescope is Hubble’s successor. 'If these guys are right, we’re going to be looking at [Planet X] in 2018'”, but I'm pretty sure the author misunderstood Green. I've seen Mike Brown explain multiple times on Twitter that JWST's small field-of-view makes it worthless for finding Planet Nine, but if and when it is found by some wide-angle telescope like Subaru or Rubin, then a top priority will be pointing JWST at it to get a better look. Birdfern (talk) 00:33, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

[https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-3881/aceaf0/pdf Patryk Lakawka has a new paper out.] Serendi^podous 19:22, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

:This is a hypothesis discrete from Planet Nine. While it's similar in that it's a hypothesized planet beyond Neptune explaining the orbits of objects like Sedna, it's different enough that it's considered a hypothesis entirely separate. See the last paragraph on page 3. 134340Goat (talk) 15:21, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Vera C. Rubin Observatory should be operational by late 2024. Wait until it has collected data for a few years, then ask again. Brown himself has said that this was the ultimate test of the hypothesis.[https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/to-planet-9-and-beyond-an-interview-with-mike-brown] It looks to me like the interest in the search for P9 has decreased considerably, and only Rubin can really change things right now.

To quote Brown again ([https://www.quora.com/Which-has-been-the-greatest-distance-ever-between-the-Earth-and-V774104-as-it-is-currently-known-by-astronomers ?]): Things happen slowly in the Kuiper belt. Renerpho (talk) 22:26, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

:{{re|Jehochman}} Konstantin Batygin has just posted a thread on Twitter/X where he discusses the new Lykawka & Ito paper,[https://twitter.com/kbatygin/status/1702441937712591293] and announces that he is working on a new Planet Nine paper:[https://twitter.com/kbatygin/status/1702441963557917054]{{block indent|1=So what's next? Together w/ Gabe Pichierri, a postdoc in my group at @Caltech, we are working on the next generation of P9 models with an eye towards the wealth of data soon to come from Vera Rubin Obs. While I won't share specifics yet, exciting results are on the horizon.}}Probably predictions what exactly Vera Rubin's limits should be, and how likely it is to find P9 (if it exists). We have something to look forward to in the coming months, and in anticipation of first light at Vera Rubin! Renerpho (talk) 07:58, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

::There’s also a new paper [https://arxiv.org/pdf/2304.00576.pdf] that surprisingly finds that the MOND gravity model could explain the observed clustering. The clustering would be the effect not of a planet but of the galactic core under a revised model of gravity. Once this paper is published somewhere, I think it definitely needs to be added to the article because it’s a major new explanation for the observed phenomena. Jehochman ^Talk 00:42, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

:::{{re|Jehochman}} That Brown&Mathur paper, which was uploaded to Arxiv in April, has to share the credit with Migaszewski's, which was accepted for publication in MNRAS in July and uploaded to Arxiv in March.[https://arxiv.org/pdf/2303.13339.pdf] Quote from Brown&Mathur: "Accepted at the Astronomical Journal. [...] Complementary to the findings of Migaszewski"[https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2023arXiv230400576J/abstract] Renerpho (talk) 06:28, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

So, I'm kind of busy with school and work. Is there a volunteer who will update the article with the MOND theory? This seems important. Jehochman ^Talk 02:59, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

::which theory is the below?

:{{quote|An alternative “flavor” of the Planet Nine hypothesis that Brown concedes is that it’s actually [https://www.vice.com/en/article/ak38yk/scientists-are-close-to-finding-planet-9 | a much bigger, much more distant planet] sitting somewhere in the Oort Cloud some 3.2 lightyears away.}} 1.38.103.24 (talk) 05:40, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

:Simply another iteration of a trans-Neptunian planet hypothesis, of which there are many. ArkHyena (talk) 06:03, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

{{u|Andyjsmith}} has recently removed the image from the infobox, with the rationale {{tq|weird planet made of vantablack? Speculation - I’m pretty sure Brown didn’t say it looked like this! Also, totally uninformative and i encyclopaedic. What are readers to gain from this black blob?}}[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Planet_Nine&diff=1186994720&oldid=1185939140] This was reverted by {{u|Jehochman}}, claiming that {{tq|This image was carefully discussed during FAC.}}[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Planet_Nine&diff=next&oldid=1186994720]

Was it though? Neither FAC1 nor FAC2 seem to include any discussion of the image. FAC2 mentions it in a single sentence, no discussion (just saying "it seems fine"), nothing that addresses Andyjsmith's rationale to remove it. Talk:Planet Nine/Archive 6#Image help doesn't mention it either. If I miss where the discussion took place then please point me to it.

I don't know if I agree with Andyjsmith, but an unencyclopedic image is certainly a good reason for removal, and we often shy away from using artistic impressions for that very reason. Renerpho (talk) 03:43, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

:We've been having discussions about the infobox image since 2016, and so far consensus has held to use the current image (or to be pedantic, there has not been a consensus to change the image). I don't particularly have an opinion on the substance of the question, but it shouldn't be removed unilaterally. Primefac (talk) 09:22, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

:: if it’s been discussed since 2016, then I think that helps to make my point, that it is is not obviously encyclopedic. A black disc against an unlikely background of stars could be an image of anything – planet Zog or the Death Star. Put it like this – it’s unreferenced and just something somebody made up one day.Andyjsmith (talk) 09:50, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

:: I just found [https://caltech.app.box.com/s/ddnmtrf45pdupqrfp1jwpd30hcrt4ehb this], which seems to be the original source of the image under discussion. Frankly it's far better - actually looks like a planet. It's used by [https://exoplanets.nasa.gov/news/245/far-beyond-pluto-a-possible-planet-nine-awaits-discovery/ NASA] and plenty of news media, with credits to "Caltech/R. Hurt (IPAC)" - that's a proper astronomer with his own WP article. IMHO we should replace the current image with this original one. Andyjsmith (talk) 11:18, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

:::: However, if this file will in fact be uploaded to Commons and used here as lead image, I would like to wipe out the bright clouds on the night side shown there, as long as the article does not mention any serious theories presuming the existence of such clouds. -- Karl432 (talk) 12:04, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

:::I don't see an indication that Hurt's image isn't copyrighted. That it's used by others doesn't help if NASA isn't the original creator.

:::By the way, if the image has actually been discussed since 2016, and has not been removed, that shows it's not obviously UNencyclopedic, otherwise it would be long gone. That's why I asked for a link to the discussion at the FAC, which I haven't been able to find. Renerpho (talk) 11:24, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

::::Regarding copyright: Per [https://www.ipac.caltech.edu/page/image-use-policy IPAC's Image Use Policy], most of their images are released under a free license. However, quote, {{tq|some image and video materials on IPAC public web sites are owned by organizations other than Caltech, JPL, or NASA. These owners have agreed to make their images and video available for journalistic, educational, and personal uses, but restrictions are placed on commercial uses. To obtain permission for commercial use, contact the copyright owner listed in each image caption and/or credit. Ownership of images and video by parties other than Caltech, JPL, and NASA is noted in the caption material and/or image credit with each image.}} Does that apply to Robert Hurt, who represents IPAC? If not then we could probably use that image. Renerpho (talk) 11:38, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

:::No can do, unfortunately, as it's already been tried and deleted (see :commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Planet-Nine-in-Outer-Space-artistic-depiction.jpg, which lists both a "variant" of the original image and a link to the original image deletion discussion). Primefac (talk) 13:35, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

:I have to say, as we do not even know it exists I am unsure if any artist's impression is encyclopedic. Slatersteven (talk) 12:01, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

::Well, it's useful to say that is an artists impression, and the article should have a lead image. If not this one then we should discuss replacing it with another. Jehochman ^Talk 15:29, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

:::Why should it have one, is that a policy? Slatersteven (talk) 15:36, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

:I fall back on my original reasoning. It's a pitch black blob. I'm fairly sure Planet Nine is not a pitch black blob. From the position of the sun we'd expect to see a significant crescent (and maybe a hint of atmosphere) so even by its own limited standard this is not an accurate representation of anything. I got DALL-E to create a fairly rubbish image that makes my point. I couldn't get the sun far enough away, which would have made the crescent bigger. File:DALL·E 2023-11-27 15.47.49 - A digital illustration inspired by the artistic style of Planet Nine from Wikipedia, featuring a dark, distant planet viewed from its dark side in spa.png Andyjsmith (talk) 16:00, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

:This is a mountain of a molehill. A black blob is hyperbole. We will have nothing for decades or more to represent Planet 9 accurately, if ever. I rather like the obscurity, because it emphasizes the enigma that its appearance is unknown, and it remains elusive and difficult to detect. It's appearance is all speculation. A blue blob, a highly detailed red blob, it doesn't matter. None of it will be correct, and it's possible Planet 9 doesn't exist. Change it back to the original image if you prefer, but it too, is a black blob that I'm perfectly happy with. Leitmotiv (talk) 01:40, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

There is an arXiv pre-print published January 31st 2024 giving new information on the search, some of which has already been reported in the popular astronomy press.

• [https://arxiv.org/pdf/2401.17977.pdf A Pan-STARRS1 Search for Planet Nine]
• [https://arxiv.org/abs/2401.17977 arXiv link]

Abstract:

:We present a search for Planet Nine using the second data release of the Pan-STARRS1 survey. We rule out the existence of a Planet Nine with the characteristics of that predicted in Brown & Batygin (2021) to a 50% completion depth of V = 21.5. This survey, along with previous analyses of the Zwicky Transient Facility (ZTF) and Dark Energy Survey (DES) data, rules out 78% of the Brown & Batygin parameter space. Much of the remaining parameter space is at V > 21 in regions near and in the area where the northern galactic plane crosses the ecliptic.

Eniagrom (talk) 05:45, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

:This sounds like good info and the preprint is solid but I don’t think it counts as a reliable secondary source yet. If you can find something else that cites it, that might be a stronger reference. Either way this is definitely relevant to the article and should probably be included. OverzealousAutocorrect (talk) 16:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

::Hi there, I actually found out about this precisely because there are a lot of secondary sources reporting on it (I'll include a few here for the purposes of discussion, but if you search for "Planet Nine" on Google with the time criteria set to "within the last month", you'll find many). Having said that, I don't think I would personally bother sourcing any of these, even if they may technically be WP:RS. All of them are just citing the pre-print anyway and the pre-print will eventually pass peer review, and is less likely to be a dead link in 10 years than the random science interest sites. So, if it were me, I'd either 1) cite the pre-print directly, as the likelihood of it being rejected in peer review is incredibly low and anyway the articles in question are citing the same information, forcing a retraction by WP in either case or 2) wait until it passes peer review and then cite it.

::There's precedent on this article for citing pre-prints btw. B&B papers on this subject don't generally get rejected and this one isn't making any bombshell claims (fundamentally, it's still "We haven't found Planet Nine").

::# https://www.universetoday.com/165774/theres-one-last-place-planet-9-could-be-hiding/

::# https://www.independent.co.uk/space/nine-planet-solar-system-b2500389.html

::# https://www.livescience.com/space/planets/astronomers-narrow-down-where-planet-nine-could-be-hiding-by-playing-massive-game-of-connect-the-dots

::There are many more of these, of varying journalistic quality. Eniagrom (talk) 02:07, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

:::That's actually great then. Seems like the primary is getting plenty of secondary references; atp I think it's good as a source for the article. Id say find the references of highest journalistic quality and then either start adding to the article or post them here for another to add (I am more than willing if you are not)! OverzealousAutocorrect (talk) 12:14, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Headbomb (alt) (talk) 15:49, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Orbit of possible planet X https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.18170 predicts a closer planet with a~230 au, and an apparent magnitude bright enough that I would expect that it would have already been spotted unless it is currently crossing the galactic plane. Agmartin (talk) 21:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Is the below included in the main article

[https://pubs.aip.org/physicstoday/article/77/11/22/3318192/What-s-up-with-Planet-Nine-The-question-of-whether What’s up with Planet Nine]

[https://www.astronomy.com/science/does-planet-nine-exist/ Does Planet Nine exist?]

[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/if-planet-nine-exists-well-find-it-soon/ We May Be on the Brink of Finding the Real Planet Nine]

27.5.121.121 (talk) 13:02, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

:The article already has a great deal of content based on the work of Batygin and Brown. Johnjbarton (talk) 15:53, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

::What I have given above needs to go into both Effects_of_Planet_Nine_on_trans-Neptunian_objects & Planet_Nine#Dynamics:_How_Planet_Nine_modifies_the_orbits_of_ETNOs 49.206.100.34 (talk) 08:28, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

:::one more link on same topic: https://arxiv.org/abs/2404.11594

:::— Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.38.102.99 (talk) 10:29, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Please remember that WP:COPYVIO applies to talk pages, too. Long quotes should be avoided when possible. Renerpho (talk) 21:54, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::something like the below can be added:

:::::Neptune tries to keep rocky bodies away from Solar System but #PlanetNine keeps flinging some of them back in & score goals past the goalie Neptune. It'd be a big surprise (5σ level) if it doesn't exist

:::::[https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/2041-8213/ad3cd2 Primary ref]

:::::[https://www.space.com/planet-9-cometary-bodies-neptune-solar-system?utm_content=space.com&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=socialflow Secondary ref]

:::::Tertiary refs — given at the top. 2406:7400:BB:310C:AC53:EB2B:34F6:69E5 (talk) 15:42, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::That 2024 paper is already referenced in the article. Johnjbarton (talk) 16:06, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::is the 5σ confidence level mentioned? That makes it the strongest evidence so far... 27.5.104.55 (talk) 16:39, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::::The primary counter argument to P9 simulations has been related to data selection. The confidence level does not address this aspect. A confidence level is only useful when comparing two scenarios against an agreed data set. Anyway the article has an entire paragraph devoted to the 2024 paper which could be compared to the source. Johnjbarton (talk) 17:08, 12 March 2025 (UTC)