Talk:Pogrom

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I am requesting that:

"Modern historians give estimates of the scale of the murders by Khmelnytsky's Cossacks ranging between 40,000 and 100,000 men, women and children, or perhaps many more."

be changed to:

"Modern historians estimate that between 18,000 and 20,000 Jewish men, women and children died during the uprising"

Explanation:

Although many sources are provided for these numbers, they are not what most would consider "modern". The most recent source provided is from 2005 but the majority are from the 1990s.

More recent research on the uprising has provided newer estimates for the total number of Jews that perished. These methods are based on demographic data as opposed to first-hand accounts and government documents. This newer research methods provide two insights: lower Jewish fatality estimates and an upper limit to the total Jewish population affected by the uprising.

Studies from 2003{{cite journal | url=https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1022330717763 | doi=10.1023/A:1022330717763 | date=2003 | last1=Stampfer | first1=Shaul | title=What Actually Happened to the Jews of Ukraine in 1648? | journal=Jewish History | volume=17 | issue=2 | pages=207–227 }} and 2014{{cite book | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=jVqqAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA100 | title=Atrocities, Massacres, and War Crimes: An Encyclopedia [2 volumes]: An Encyclopedia | isbn=978-1-59884-926-4 | last1=Mikaberidze | first1=Alexander | date=25 June 2013 | publisher=Abc-Clio }} that have used these methods have provided estimates within the range of 18,000–20,000. These studies ascribe many of these deaths to starvation, disease and displacement instead of "murders by Khmelnytsky's Cossacks".

What is more important is that the demographic methods these studies have used put an upper limit to the total Jewish population during the uprising at around 40,000-50,000. This suggests that the estimate of 100,000 Jewish fatalities is highly unreasonable.

The Khmelnytsky Uprising article already goes into this topic in great detail and they seem to have reached a consenus on either 18,000-20,000 or 15,000-30,000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmelnytsky_Uprising#Jews

TLDR:

I suggest that the fatality numbers be revised to the range that is suggested by recent sources and the consensus of Wikipedia's Khmelnytsky Uprising article (18,000-20,000). Similarly, it should be made clear that these deaths cannot be ascribed to direct violence by Cossacks and many were a result of starvation, disease and displacement. Vinidapoo (talk) 16:39, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

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:Hi Vinidapoo. I don't have access to your second source; I don't see the consensus in Khmelnytsky_Uprising#Jews. Also, the numbers in our article are very well sourced. However, I do see a discussion about the numbers in Khmelnytsky_Uprising#Jews and therefore I will add this sentence: "However, these figures are contested as being too high, with the lowest estimates suggesting that 18,000–20,000 Jews died out of a total population of 40,000, many due to disease and famine." I will also not close the edit request, so other editors can come along and maybe disagree with me. Friendly, Lova Falk (talk) 09:02, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

::I agree with @Lova Falk, and I will close the edit request. Yes, 2005 and the 1990s do count as "modern historians." 15+ sources disagree with you -- so does consensus. Regardless, the other studies with the lower numbers are already included in another sentence. Thanks for the detailed edit request, AnonymousScholar49 (talk) 13:08, 6 May 2025 (UTC)