Talk:Princess Mononoke#About the rewrite of the plot summary

Per the hidden comment at the top of {{slinkno|Princess Mononoke#Plot summary}}, here's a talk page section in case anyone would like to discuss the changes I've made. I've included a fair bit more detail, about as much as could fit in the the 700-word limit. I've removed obscure Japanese terms like {{lang|ja-Latn|kanrei}} and {{lang|ja-Latn|jizamurai}} which don't add much to a reader's understanding of the story and are not brought up in the article again. In general, I've tried to approach the rewrite by working backwards from the newly improved Themes and Style sections, as the encyclopedic purpose of the plot summary is to contextualize the more detailed analyses later in the prose. I welcome any questions or feedback about my work (about this section or elsewhere), so please let me know if you have any! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 23:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

:As one of the major contributors, I would like to thank you for your efforts on improving this article (including the plot summary). I've been meaning to bring it up to GA for quite a few years. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

:Also, for the plot description in the lead, I think we can try one of the following:

:* "Set during Japan's Muromachi period, the film follows Ashitaka, an Emishi prince who journeys west to cure his cursed arm and becomes embroiled in the conflict between Irontown and the forest of the gods, as well as the feud between Lady Eboshi and a human girl raised by wolves, San."

:* "Set during Japan's Muromachi period, the film follows Ashitaka, an Emishi prince who journeys west to cure his cursed arm and becomes embroiled in the conflict between Irontown and the forest of the gods, as well as the feud between Lady Eboshi and San, a human girl raised by wolves."

:* "Set in the Muromachi period of Japanese history, the film follows Ashitaka, a young Emishi prince who journeys west to cure his cursed arm and becomes embroiled in the conflict between Irontown and the forest of the gods, as well as the feud between Lady Eboshi and a human girl raised by wolves, San."

:* "Set in the Muromachi period of Japanese history, the film follows Ashitaka, a young Emishi prince who journeys west to cure his cursed arm and becomes embroiled in the conflict between Irontown and the forest of the gods, as well as the feud between Lady Eboshi and San, a human girl raised by wolves."

:If there are any other suggestions, please let me know here. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

::I like the third option best... but I also can't see the difference between it and the current phrasing. :P Like I mentioned earlier, I think "Japan's Muromachi period" reads awkwardly as time periods relate to a country's history, not the country itself. (I've never heard "England's Victorian era", for example.) I also prefer the phrase "a human girl raised by wolves" before San's name to make it clear who the phrase is referring to. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 00:14, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

:::While I've gone ahead and rephrased the lead's plot description at the moment, I think Wikipedia:How to streamline a plot summary would help in streamlining any potential unnecessary additions and scene-by-scene recaps in the plot section, which is generally avoided as per WP:FILMPLOT. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

About the header in the article, should we consider using either "Plot" or "Plot summary"? For the part where Eboshi and Jigo attack the boar clan (Eboshi and Jigo lure the boar clan and annihilate them in battle..."), should we simplify the last part into "slay them" or "attack them"? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 09:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

:I think I said this in an edit summary before, but I usually prefer "plot summary" as it tells the reader that the section is an incomplete and boiled-down version of the work's story. There's nothing horrible about the simple "plot", but lacking a compelling reason to change it, MOS:VAR advises leaving styling choices like this as is. I think the use of "annihilate" is appropriate in this context, as the film shows the entire clan killed in the battle. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 17:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

::As we generally avoid euphemisms per WP:EUPHEMISM, is "annihilate" considered one?

::Also, some editors including myself use a script tool to check the plot summary word count for TV episodes and films (User:Alex_21/script-plotlength.js); it can be installed in the user's monobook if so needed. In this particular instance, it goes straight into mentioning the summary word count for an episode WP:TVPLOT instead of WP:FILMPLOT; that is partially why I sometimes use online word counter sites to check this summary's word count. Maybe we can ask other WP:FILM editors on this? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

:::I would not consider annihilate to be a euphemism in this context; it conveys the message directly enough. Thanks for sharing that script, though I don't think we're in need of trimming the word count any further to comply with the MOS (currently at 679 words). —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 00:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

::::Reasonable concerns. As a side note, back in 2012, I found myself in some lively discussions on how we should handle the plot summary during my potential GA push (one of my later plans is to get this article up to FA status so we can feature it as a TFA on July 12, 2027).

::::For the scene where the Nightwalker dies, the plot description reads "light of the sunrise" (or "sunrise's light" per my recent edit), which would be accurate per [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sunrise these definitions]: sunrise is either "the apparent rising of the sun above the horizon" or "the time when the upper limb of the sun appears above the horizon as a result of the diurnal rotation of the earth". So, I think either of the above plot descriptions might work.

::::While I can admit some of my edits to the plot can cause unintentional ambiguity for other readers when I try trimming it down, I wonder which plot sentences we can streamline as per Wikipedia:How to streamline a plot summary without any loss of meaning. Thoughts? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:02, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Ok, so I would have put this in the article but given it's quite a substantial rewrite, I thought I would let you pick over it here. I have attempted to cut back on some things that didn't seem very necessary, and clarify some of the more interesting themes like them being consumed by hatred, etc. I've also just introduced Nago at the start rather than doing reveals later because it was just taking up space. Same with mentioning the opening battle where he learns he's got super strength, the strength seemed more important than the battle.

In Muromachi era Japan, the last Emishi prince, Ashitaka, kills a gigantic boar demon to protect his village, but his arm is afflicted by its curse. The boar, once the god Nago, was corrupted by its hatred for humans. Learning that the curse will eventually kill him, Ashitaka chooses exile and journeys west, seeking a cure by uncovering the source of Nago's hatred.

On his journey, Ashitaka discovers that the curse grants him supernatural strength. He encounters a monk named Jigo, who advises him to seek answers in the nearby mountains from the Forest Spirit—a deer-like god of life and death that transforms into the giant Nightwalker at sunset. Guided by tiny {{lang|ja-Latn|kodama}}, Ashitaka ventures into the forest of the gods, where he catches a glimpse of the Forest Spirit.

He arrives at Irontown, a settlement that has deforested the surrounding area to mine iron ore for powerful firearms, giving its inhabitants an advantage over the giant beasts guarding the forest. The town's revered leader, Lady Eboshi, admits to shooting Nago, instilling the hatred that corrupted him. She also reveals her plan to kill the Forest Spirit, hoping to end the beasts' resistance and enable Irontown to prosper. Though Ashitaka's cursed arm tries to attack Eboshi, he resists its influence. Eboshi is collaborating with Jigo, who stands to be richly rewarded for delivering the Forest Spirit's head—believed to grant immortality—to the Emperor.

Irontown is attacked by the wolves, led by Moro and her adopted human daughter, San. San duels with Eboshi, but Ashitaka subdues them both and suffers a grievous wound in the process. Empowered by the curse, he carries San to the forest before collapsing. San threatens to kill him for sparing Eboshi but is taken aback when he compliments her beauty. She brings Ashitaka to the Forest Spirit, who heals his wounds, though the curse remains. As San nurses him back to health, they grow closer, but she struggles with her deep distrust of humans.

The next day, the remnants of Nago's boar clan, led by the blind god Okkoto, declare their intention to attack Irontown, preferring to die in battle rather than grow weaker and become prey for humans. Ashitaka vainly pleads with them to resist the hatred that corrupted Nago and now afflicts him. He asks Moro to let San leave with him, but she refuses and banishes him from the forest.

The boars assault Irontown but are annihilated by its weaponry. Moro, San, and the mortally wounded Okkoto retreat to the forest, unknowingly followed by Eboshi and Jigo, who uses the blood of Okkoto's fallen boars to deceive him into leading them to the Forest Spirit. San tries to stop Okkoto, but his pain transforms him into a demon, engulfing her in the process. With Moro's remaining strength, she and Ashitaka free San. The Forest Spirit arrives, granting peaceful deaths to Okkoto and Moro. As it transitions into the Nightwalker, Eboshi beheads it. The Forest Spirit's body then transforms into a dark, chaotic fluid that expands in search of its head, killing everything it touches—including the forest—and briefly reanimates Moro's head, which bites off Eboshi's arm.

Though reluctant to help the humans, San joins Ashitaka in pursuing Jigo to recover the Forest Spirit's head. Ashitaka evacuates Irontown before the Nightwalker's destructive body can consume it, and together, he and San retrieve the head from Jigo, returning it to the Nightwalker. As the sun rises, the Nightwalker collapses and dissolves into the wind. In its place, the devastated land and town are renewed with abundant flora, and Ashitaka's curse is lifted.

A repentant Eboshi vows to rebuild Irontown with greater care and compassion. Ashitaka and San acknowledge their deep connection. While Ashitaka chooses to help with Irontown's reconstruction and San, unable to forgive humanity, decides to stay in the forest, they promise to meet as often as they can.

Let me know what you think, if you want to use it I'd like to put it in just for attribution purposes. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:03, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

:I think it looks good. Maybe Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch can help with regards to potential weasel words and so on. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:17, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks, Darkwarriorblake! There are some inaccuracies in this version, but I think it's headed in the right direction in terms of where you've condensed events down. I'll make some changes when I have a moment this weekend and ping you again if you want to move it into the article. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 20:39, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

::Mox Eden is doing a copyedit of this article at the moment; we'll probably incorporate said copyedits into the proposed summary later on. If you have concerns about Mox Eden's copyedits, there's the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors talk page. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:50, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

::Now that the copy-edit is done, I've boldly added the summary into the article. We'll hash out any additional implementations or differences here, line by line if needed. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:00, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

:::Noting here that I've reverted and I'll try to get a version of Darkwarriorblake's rewrite here with corrections sometime today or tomorrow. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 18:46, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

::::Duly noted. No rush. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 10:36, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:::: What do we think of this one? I've blended in sentences from the old version to fill in a few gaps or inaccuracies, but I think the flow and the balance of plot elements is better, as I mentioned earlier. Word count is 616. Darkwarriorblake, courtesy ping, and feel free to move this into the article if you'd like.{{pb}}{{bq|In Muromachi-era Japan, the last Emishi prince, Ashitaka, kills a gigantic demon to protect his village, but his arm is afflicted by its curse. The demon, once the boar god Nago, was corrupted by an iron ball embedded in its body. Learning that the curse will eventually kill him, Ashitaka is exiled to the west, seeking a cure by uncovering the source of Nago's hatred.{{pb}}On his journey, Ashitaka discovers that the curse grants him supernatural strength. He encounters a monk named Jigo, who advises him to seek answers in the nearby mountains from the Forest Spirit – a deer-like god of life and death that transforms into the giant Nightwalker at sunset. Guided by tiny {{lang|ja-Latn|kodama}}, Ashitaka passes through the forest of the gods, where he catches a glimpse of the Forest Spirit. Nearby, a group of men led by Lady Eboshi repel an attack by a pack of wolves led by the goddess Moro and her adopted human daughter, San.{{pb}}Ashitaka arrives at Irontown, a settlement that has deforested the surrounding area to mine iron, leading to conflicts with the nearby lord Asano and the animal gods of the forest. However, the town shelters former prostitutes and people with leprosy, who work to manufacture firearms. Eboshi, the town's leader, admits to shooting Nago, instilling the hatred that corrupted him. She also reveals her plan to kill the Forest Spirit, hoping to eradicate the gods and enable Irontown to prosper. Though Ashitaka's cursed arm tries to attack Eboshi, he resists its influence. Eboshi is collaborating with Jigo, who stands to be richly rewarded for delivering the Forest Spirit's head – believed to grant immortality – to the Emperor.{{pb}}The wolves attack; San infiltrates Irontown and duels Eboshi. Ashitaka subdues them both, but is shot by a townsperson. Strengthened by the curse, he takes San out of the town before collapsing. San threatens to kill him for sparing Eboshi, but is taken aback when he compliments her beauty. She brings Ashitaka to the Forest Spirit, who heals his wound but leaves the curse. The next day, a boar clan, led by the blind god Okkoto, declare their intention to attack Irontown, preferring to die in battle rather than allow their kind to diminish. Ashitaka recovers and implores Moro to let San escape with him, but the gods banish him from the forest.{{pb}}The boars assault Irontown's forces but are annihilated by their weaponry. San and the mortally wounded Okkoto retreat to the forest, unknowingly followed by Eboshi and Jigo, who use the blood of the fallen boars to deceive Okkoto into leading them to the Forest Spirit. San tries to stop him, but his pain transforms him into a demon, engulfing her. With Moro's remaining strength, she and Ashitaka free San. The Forest Spirit grants peaceful deaths to Okkoto and Moro. As it transforms into the Nightwalker, Eboshi beheads it. Its body explodes into a dark, chaotic fluid that expands in search of its head, killing everything it touches – including the forest – and briefly reanimates Moro's head, which bites off Eboshi's arm.{{pb}}Though reluctant to help the humans, San joins Ashitaka in pursuing Jigo to recover the Forest Spirit's head. Ashitaka evacuates Irontown as the Nightwalker's body floods it, and together, he and San retrieve the head from Jigo, returning it to the Nightwalker. As the sun rises, the Nightwalker dies and dissolves into the wind. In its place, the devastated land is renewed with abundant flora, and Ashitaka's curse is lifted. A repentant Eboshi resolves to build a better town. While Ashitaka chooses to help with Irontown's reconstruction, San, unable to forgive humanity, decides to stay in the forest. They promise to meet as often as they can.}}{{pb}}Bottom text. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:41, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

:::::This is mostly good, I will say I don't see the purpose of mentioning Lord Asano, while he creates some issues in the narrative he's ultimately unimportant and you can never mention him without creating issue, it's the conflict with the animals that is the main element. It would be different if Asano killed all the women because of Eboshi's focus, but she ultimately trusts them to beat his men and it's the Nightstalker that does the town in. Other than that, it looks fine. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 09:35, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

::::::While I've made some small copyedits here and there, I also think the plot looks good at the moment. Of course, we can always ask for some additional local editor feedback as needed. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 13:34, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

:::::: Fair enough. Since you've cut out the siege of Irontown later on, I agree there's no longer any purpose mentioning Asano; I've removed it. I've also switched the dashes back over to en dashes (–) for consistency with the rest of the article. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 14:38, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

::::::::FYI, en dash is typically for ranges, such as numbers, typically replacing "to", em dash is for how it is used in this plot section, for asides or other extra information, it's similar to a comma but more explicit, and there shouldn't be spaces around them. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 19:01, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

::{{outdent|6}} Spaced en dashes can be used interchangeably with unspaced em dashes as punctuation; I've seen both in common use by various publications, and MOS:DASH approves of both. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 19:34, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

{{Talk:Princess Mononoke/GA2}}

I have been thinking: should we consider adding details about the casting for the article in the development section? I can also help with finding some of the Japanese sources for this section as well as different sections of the article as necessary. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 10:27, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

:Sure, that sounds great to me if you know of any sources that cover that aspect in more detail. Kanō 2006 has a few details here and there, but nothing I'd consider substantial enough for its own subsection yet. Carter 2018 also has discussion about the casting choices made for the English dub. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 16:07, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

::A couple of sources I can find include Animage, Newtype, the Yomiuri Shimbun (and The Japan News), the Asahi Shimbun, the Mainichi Shimbun (and The Mainichi), The Japan Times, and so on. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

:::Would you mind linking them here if possible or sharing the issue numbers of the magazines so I can take a look through them? —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

::::All right. Here goes:

::::* [https://webnewtype.com/magazine/ Newtype]

::::* [https://www.yomiuri.co.jp/ Yomiuri Shimbun] ([https://japannews.yomiuri.co.jp/ The Japan News])

::::* [https://www.asahi.com/ Asahi Shimbun] ([https://www.asahi.com/ajw/ English Version])

::::* [https://mainichi.jp Mainichi Shimbun] ([https://mainichi.jp/english/ The Mainichi])

::::* [https://www.japantimes.co.jp/ The Japan Times]

::::Some of those links are in Japanese (which I am proficient at, along with other users who can help such as Nihonjoe and Knowledgekid87). I'll try translating them when I have the time. Also, maybe we can use The Art of Princess Mononoke to expand upon the other sections of this article. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 11:47, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

:::::These are all links to the home pages of the publications; do you have any specific articles in mind? On the art book, I've tried to be judicious about adding detail from it as it is a primary source. I think it might be better to start looking at scholarly sources that cover these aspects to avoid the trap of inadvertently adding fancruft to this section. Outside of the sources already in the article, I can only think of The Anime Machine for another English-language source that may have more to say about the animation. There are also lots of Japanese books and magazine special issues listed at this Nausicaa.net page which are sure to have much more. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 17:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

::::::Regarding the publication links, I added the home pages so that users can search for articles on Ghibli films (including this one) via said pages' search bars, whether it's in Japanese or English. Also, those publications have digital archives. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Here are some interviews regarding the film's casting:

• [https://ghibli.jpn.org/report/youjimat/ Ghibli interview with Yoji Matsuda] which also includes his work on Nausicaä (in Japanese)
• [https://bunshun.jp/articles/-/47830 Bunshun interview with Yoji Matsuda] (in Japanese)
• [https://realsound.jp/movie/2023/07/post-1380444.html Real Sound interview with Hayao Miyazaki] which details how he cast each character (in Japanese)

The above list will be expanded as I find more sources. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 10:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks! I can take a look and incorporate these when I have a little more time on my hands. You can also consider leaving these in the {{tl|Refideas}} template at the top of this page. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 17:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

::No problem. After all, there is no deadline. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Princess Mononoke}}

To address the changes to the lead's reception summary and the hidden comment's brief addition, unless we have a source or group of sources summarizing the critical reception for us (similar to what Rotten Tomatoes does for most feature films), then we cannot include a summary statement that we have created ourselves as per WP:SYNTH and WP:FILMLEAD. This is what led to the most recent discussion to get it inserted into WP:MOSFILM back in 2023.

At the moment, the only source supporting a general summary of the critical response is Metacritic, which reads "generally favorable" (the site currently has 27 positive reviews and 2 average reviews).

Rather than edit war over this, I thought I would open up a discussion per WP:BRD so others can give their thoughts on this matter. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

:Sjones23, there are multiple sourced statements in {{slinkno|Princess Mononoke#Critical response}} that support the claim in the lead. Kanō 2006 states "Critics across the United States unanimously praised the film." (p. 216) and Pett 2018 states "... a number of highly positive evaluations of the film. [...] it was widely considered to be a critical success", which I've summarized in that section as "{{xt|the film received widespread praise from critics in the United States.}}" A few other sources say similar things. Kanō also states "The film was generally well-received in Japan" (p. 217), and there are other direct quotes from him in that section that go into more detail. I think that's more than enough sourcing to justify the phrasing used in the lead — "{{xt|It received a broadly positive critical response in both Japan and the United States}}" — which I honestly felt I was underselling in the name of neutrality when I wrote it. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 17:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

::I can agree with your sentiments about the potential underselling of that particular phrasing. Other discussions on the lead's reception summaries in other film articles such as Talk:Batman & Robin (film)#Reception in the lead and Talk:Raiders of the Lost Ark#Synthesis in the lead section come to mind.

::There are actually some reviews on multiple United Kingdom-based newspapers such as [http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/2001/10/16/princess_mononoke_2001_review.shtml?survey the BBC], [http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4280398,00.html The Guardian] and so on if you search for them online. For the reviews for Japanese release, [http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/mh/reviews.html#japanese there are ones from Variety and The Daily Yomiuri]. I'll try adding some more reference ideas for reviews and place them at the top of this talk page as needed. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

:::The question of including more reviews came up during the GAN review, and I would stand by my argument, at least for the moment, that we should refrain from adding more reviews to preserve some semblance of due weight given to each aspect covered in the section. There are an enormous number of reviews that I wouldn't be able to sift through to find the most common comments, so I'm relying on scholars to provide guidance on which aspects are the most important. It's also important to remember that the readily available sources for this section will almost invariably be English-language reviews that have been archived online at some point, so the trap of Western or Anglophone bias is all too easy to fall into. There's an almost equally massive repository of reviews from Japanese critics that are a lot harder to include as they are offline, behind significant paywalls, or simply unusable without human translation. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 02:18, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

::::Since some of us editors know quite a bit of Japanese like myself (I studied the language for at least one year), User:Nihonjoe and User:Knowledgekid87, I could personally try looking into those. I've also asked on WikiProjects (including WP:JAPAN) for additional input on this.

::::About the reception section itself, there are some templates we can use as necessary including {{tl|Rotten Tomatoes prose}} and {{tl|Metacritic film prose}}. On most film articles, we usually use RT first and then MC. And for MC, the "generally favorable reviews" has been replaced with "generally favorable" as per Template talk:Metacritic film prose#Update. Some relevant guidelines like Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Film#Critical reception come to mind. If we have any problems with this, we can ask on WT:MOSFILM and/or on the templates' talk pages. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:46, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Using the The Empire Strikes Back article (which is an FA) as a point of reference, I included some footnotes regarding potential inflations where relevant in general, using the relevant templates ({{tl|Inflation|JP}}, {{tl|Inflation/year|JP}} and {{tl|Inflation/fn|JP}} templates. Thoughts? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:29, 4 March 2025 (UTC)