Talk:Renzo Gracie#rfc 5A61B31

WikiProject Biography Assessment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 00:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Can someone verify Renzo's birthday? Every website has a different date. (MgTurtle 18:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC))

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to {{plural:1|one external link|1 external links}} on Renzo Gracie. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=699082994 my edit]. If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to {{plural:2|one external link|2 external links}} on Renzo Gracie. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=707458146 my edit]. If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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Should the entry by Axeonator2 stating, "In June 2020, Renzo tweeted his defense of his quotations of the main architect of the Holocaust, Heinrich Himmler. In response to a Twitter user critical of his tweet, Renzo claimed, "it’s not my fault that your grandparents let them March through your country without a fight."" be removed from this BLP article? BasicsOnly (talk) 19:23, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• Remove - Summoned by bot. The WP:UNDUE] content should be removed. Meatsgains^(talk) 16:44, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
• Remove - BasicsOnly (talk) 10:54, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
• Remove - the entry ought to be removed. Idealigic (talk) 16:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

• Removed content after waiting 7 days with RfC up on talk page with unanimous consensus BasicsOnly (talk) 00:21, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

As a public person and coach of children, it is important for the public to know about Renzo's position regarding Nazi ideas and his links to Nazi sympathizers.

I request that this kind of information, when sourced, isn't deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14D:7E80:8378:8972:8E4E:85B3:6CFE (talk) 20:45, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

:@2804:14D:7E80:8378:8972:8E4E:85B3:6CFE There's really no problem with a brief note, but your edits are written like attacks and I keep reverting them because you're already partially blocked for personal attacks/harassment.

We have no idea if your sources are impartial or reliable, as most of them I've never heard of, and in Portuguese.

Additionally Roberto Alvim has likewise never identified as a "neonazi" (and you calling him one was reverted on his page).

Lastly in regards to Helio Gracie's politics, they really have nothing to do with Renzo, it's already on his page, it doesn't need to be copied into here. Nswix (talk) 21:14, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

:There was no attack. The information is written objectively and without any adjectives, only the facts. Two of the sources are from bloodyelbow, which is used as source at least three other times in this same article.

:The other ones include publications focused in Jiu-Jitsu in general, they're not even political publications.

:The information about Helio Gracie is important to substantiate that this isn't some isolated incident, but actually the Gracie clan in general tends to support fascist/nazi ideas.

:Roberto Alvim published an institutional video impersonating Goebbels, even paraphrasing him, and we're here discussing if he's a Nazi or not.

:Renzo Gracie has quoted Himmler and mocked the Nazi invasion of France, and we're here discussing if he supports Nazi ideas or not.

:The facts speak for themselves, denying them is being biased. 2804:14D:7E80:8378:8972:8E4E:85B3:6CFE (talk) 21:36, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1657857675}}

Should the "Personal Life" section include the subject's political opinions? 03:05, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

• Question Is this RfC meant to address the contents of {{History2|Renzo Gracie|12|these edits|20220504000000}}? --N8_wilson 13:14, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• Comment I think a brief 1-2 sentence summary of the events should be sufficient. I'm not sure if the detail initially provided is necessary, especially given the fact that many of the sources seem to be tabloids and social media outlets. Coolcactus04 (talk) 20:57, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• :I understand you're suggestion a two-sentence limit for information regarding the subject's political positions. Is this limit to be applied to MMA fighters only or to the pages of all fighters of any sport? Or is it to be applied to all pages of all athletes? Or to all pages of any personality? Also, you'd need to be more specific: which of the sources you're mentioning are tabloids (thus unreliable) and social media outlets? 00:10, 11 June 2022 (UTC) 179.215.126.48 (talk) 00:10, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
• ::Hi! My 1-2 sentence suggestion is for this specific instance, and I think each article should be analyzed individually based on the scope of the event and the strength of the evidence available. In regards to the sources, I was referring to The Independent, The Daily Beast, etc and Twitter. Let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks! Coolcactus04 (talk) 00:25, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
• :::Twitter is exactly where he has published part of his statements and he's a verified member, making himself the source. I can understand the claim that DailyBeast is a tabloid, but not the Independent. It's as a reliable source as any major media outlet. Nevertheless, there are other articles with the same content by major media outlets and I'd be happy to add them to the sources.
• :::This is relevant information because he's an athlete who children and society in general look up to and he competes in a sport with a worldwide audience. Why would it be of the public interest to suppress evidence that an athlete quotes and associates with Nazis? 179.215.126.48 (talk) 05:59, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

:The RfC is meant to address any sourced content regarding the subject's political positions. 00:07, 11 June 2022 (UTC) 179.215.126.48 (talk) 00:07, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

::All contributions are subject to WP policies. In the case of the edits I linked above, the changes are dangerously close to violating (if not in direct conflict with) the policy against original research. Specifically, they appear to synthesize a claim about political opinions, positions, or viewpoints that may not exist. The policy reads, {{tq|Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source.}} (emphasis added) As best I can tell, no source has indicated that the subject endorses, condones, adheres to, or espouses the political viewpoints or opinions of Himmler, Helio Gracie, or other prominent figures named in these edits. In fact, the source material acknowledges that Renzo specifically denied foreknowledge of Himmler's history despite quoting him. WP's policy on biographies of living persons further indicates that content which is contentious (such as this) must be immediately removed if it is poorly sourced or is an interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of sources. --N8_wilson 19:41, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

:Pinging {{u|SQGibbon}} & {{u|Nswix}} for awareness. Based on page history, these users may have further comments to make here. --N8_wilson 19:41, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with a couple sentences of inclusion from a neutral POV, but paragraphs of attacks about Nazis is a little over the top for an athlete. Nswix (talk) 01:16, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

A number of these claims appear to be in the form of guilt by association.

1. That his father was a fascist doesn't mean he is. There's no reason to mention his father unless we are trying to imply that Renzo is fascist too. Implying someone is a fascist or even claiming it is true through guilt by association goes against Wikipedia policy, so I'm not sure how to justify mentioning it.

2. Pointing out his association with politicians by itself isn't meaningful. That the claim is being made that these are "authoritarian" and that this is a problem for Renzo is original research and violates BLP.

3. Claiming that Alvim is a neonazi is not supported by sources and is original research that also violates BLP. That this somehow means anything about Renzo is entirely unsupported.

As for things that might be ok to include

1. I can't verify the source, but I would be inclined to agree that he had a verbal spat with Macron.

2. His quoting Himler might be acceptable except that it is being used to imply that he did so in order to endorse Nazism, and given that he denied the connection it's not clear how to go about mentioning it without original research and BLP issues and, once again, implying something in violation of BLP.

In the end, there isn't much that doesn't come across as a smear campaign in direct violation of WP:OR and WP:BLP. Look, I don't know who this person is nor do I care, but I do recognize Wikipedia violations when I see them and these edits are full of them. Like I said, mentioning the fight with Macron might be fine as it seems well supported as long as we don't use it to try to prove he is a fascist or neonazi or anything like that. The rest of it appears to entirely too problematic. If I'm missing some critical elements then please point them out but for now this edit has serious problems. SQGibbon (talk) 19:03, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• RENZO tiger eye.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:53, 15 April 2023 (UTC)