Talk:Richard B. Spencer#rfc 2ADFD29

I know it is only possible under very rare circumstances to use tweet citations to demonstrate the views of an individual due to Wikipedia policy on self-published sources (a policy that I´m not sure I entirely agree with, nevertheless it is still policy), anyways, the point being in relation to Russia/Ukraine that the tweet that demonstrated Spencer´s newfound support for NATO and Ukraine was taken off the section on his geopolitical views, which is fine in one regard that it complies with Wikipedia policy but it should be strongly emphasized that Spencer is no longer a supporter of Russia as anyone would believe from simply reading the article, so we should find a source to change this. StrongALPHA (talk) 08:04, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

:I think tweet citations can demonstrate views of an individual. To quote from WP:SPS:

:¨Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves ...¨ [emphasis original].

:TypistMonkey (talk) 13:42, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

::However it also may not be true, so what did the edit say? Slatersteven (talk) 13:47, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

:::Not sure what you mean by 'what did the edit say'; please clarify?

:::Do you mean if Spencer is lying about his own views? If he is verifiably the account holder, his earnestness in proclaiming this is not something we should litigate

:::TypistMonkey (talk) 13:50, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

::::He may well be, people do it all the time (In fact he has been accused (has he not) of not being honest about his politics?), what I meant is what I said, what did (or will) the edit say? Slatersteven (talk) 14:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

::::I just got to say this, I do @Slatersteven's argument to an extent, but the point here is the extent to which Spencer talks on his X account condemning Russia that if it's all a pretense it's a pretty good one at this point in time, as he's made supporting Ukraine as a feature of his talking points. StrongALPHA (talk) 16:27, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::The point is to what degree do RS do. Slatersteven (talk) 16:32, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::And "The material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;". Slatersteven (talk) 13:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

:::Shall I restore the tweets then? StrongALPHA (talk) 07:33, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

::::No, as it is "unduly self-serving", it is his claim to distance himself from criticism. Slatersteven (talk) 10:38, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Is there anyway we can change “American Nietzschean” from his profile. All white nationalists that get into Nietzsche warp or cherry pick his work to make it fit their ideology. It’s inaccurate to make it seem like he’s an authority on the subject. There’s plenty of things that can go under his name when you google search his name: White Nationalist, Alt-right influencer, Far-right figure. Anything really would be a better description of who he is. Thanks 1jd603 (talk) 22:51, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

:I don't see that phrase in the article. Simonm223 (talk) 23:45, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected|Richard B. Spencer|answered=yes}}

"Conspiracy theorist" and "antisemitic" is not sourced and not stated anywhere else other than the lead of this article, so it should be removed. 2A00:FBC:EF25:955E:3438:2F2C:DBEF:FA8E (talk) 23:46, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

:The lead is a summary of the body, which includes: {{tq|Spencer and David Duke were among those who led the crowd in chants of "You will not replace us," and "Blood and soil".}} and {{tq|In the weeks following, Spencer quoted Nazi propaganda and denounced Jews.}} and so on, and so on, and so on. Grayfell (talk) 00:38, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::Conspiracy theorist is unsourced. Obvious MOS:ROLEBIO violation going on here. 2A00:FBC:EF25:955E:D012:D123:5F93:5FE9 (talk) 01:20, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::I'm not here to discuss this. I'm straight up saying it is not sourced and must be removed as a BLP violation2A00:FBC:EF25:955E:D012:D123:5F93:5FE9 (talk) 01:22, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::This is a discussion page. Making demands, especially demands based on an apparent complete misunderstanding of the meaning of the word 'summary', is not going to gain traction. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:37, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::::We'd need multiple reliable sources explicitly calling him a conspiracy theorist for it to be due as a lead descriptor 2A00:FBC:EF1E:67F7:D5A1:98B8:95C0:63EC (talk) 16:21, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:Just provide a source and we can close this. Slatersteven (talk) 16:42, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::That's the problem, there is not a single one. The label is completely absurd. 2A00:FBC:EF1E:67F7:D5A1:98B8:95C0:63EC (talk) 16:48, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Not really absured, but it does need sourcing (as it has been challenged) As he believes in "White Dispossession and the deconstruction of Occidental civilization" is happening, “Immigration is a kind a proxy war", ", we sense in our guts that her policy proscriptions are rationalizations for nationalism. ", that is just three quotes. Slatersteven (talk) 16:56, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Here because of the IPs comment at WP:BLPN. There's some support in the body of the article for Spencer being characterized as antisemitic, but I didn't see where the article identifies any antisemitic conspiracy theories promoted by Spencer. If someone here thinks the body of the article supports his being an antisemitic conspiracy theorist, I'd appreciate a quote of the relevant text. FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:11, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::So I think the problem is this: and and @Slatersteven have managed to hit on it pretty clearly between the two of you.

:::::Spencer being antisemitic is supported in the text. That's fine. Spencer saying things we know to be conspiracy theories is also present. So we, as reasonable and logical people can look at "Immigration is a kind of proxy war" and say - yeah that's the Great Replacement Theory. Which is an antisemitic conspiracy theory.

:::::But unfortunately, reasonable though that is, it's WP:SYNTH. We need a source that says "Spencer promotes the Great Replacement conspiracy theory." And that's missing. At the moment. Give me a few minutes to have a look. Simonm223 (talk) 17:36, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::From "Violence as method: the "white replacement", "white genocide", and "Eurabia" conspiracy theories and the biopolitics of networked violence. By: Davis, Mark, Ethnic & Racial Studies, 01419870, Feb2025, Vol. 48, Issue 3"{{tq|Camus's book made "replacement" theory an extremist rallying call, notably among the French Nouvelle Droite (FND), where it plays a role in "metapolitical strategies" inspired by Gramsci's theories of hegemony, that seek to advance political change by first creating cultural change (Bar-On [ 5]). "Replacement" theory lends life to two key FND concepts, "identitarianism" and "ethnopluralism", as promoted by the Identitarian Movement in France, including Génération Identitaire and iterations of Generation Identity across Europe and in the UK, and by leading US "alt-right" figures such as Richard Spencer, Daniel Friberg and Jared Taylor (Bar-On [ 6]; Nieli and Sedgwick [52]; Teitelbaum [65]). Both concepts seek to gain metapolitical advantage and a cultural foothold by avoiding traditional white supremacist tropes. Identitarianism avoids open claims of white racial superiority and is the belief that race, culture, place, and tradition are organically linked.}}
and
{{tq|These network strategies seek to normalise "replacement" and "genocide" theory and provide justifications for the dehumanisation of and violence against Others, that in turn have been promoted by "ideological entrepreneurs" with profiles in mainstream media and politics. It is possible to discern a "trade route" that traffics the "replacement", "genocide", and "Eurabia" conspiracy theories from the pages of "manifestos" produced by killers, social media and the open web, and into mainstream media.

A transnational network of extreme right ideological entrepreneurs play an important role in facilitating this traffic, such as the Gefira Foundation, an extreme right "think tank" focussed on "demographic changes" (Davey and Ebner [23], 16), and intermediaries such as Stephen Bannon or Richard Spencer, who led the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" rally in 2017, with its chants of "Jews will not replace us" and "You will not replace us".}} How's that for a start? Simonm223 (talk) 17:40, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::From: From "Race Suicide" to "White Extinction": White Nationalism, Nativism, and Eugenics over the Past Century. By: Stern, Alexandra Minna, Journal of American History, 00218723, Sep2022, Vol. 109, Issue 2 {{tq|Madison Grant made frequent cameos in the alt-right quarters of the Internet. In 2016 Spencer published a long essay, "Madison Grant and the American Nation" in the now-defunct Radix Journal. In this piece, Spencer praises The Passing of the Great Race as well as Grant's 1933 book The Conquest of a Continent. Spencer was particularly interested in rehabilitating the latter book, which he described as a "great history" and a "grand vision of bio-cultural struggle and evolution, in which demography comes alive." Spencer was enraptured by The Conquest of a Continent and its recounting of a triumphant story of the making of America as a "Nordic country" through a combination of "individualism, Protestantism, uprightness, and the pioneer spirit."[ 6]}} - Madison Grant wrote "The Passing of the Great Race" and "The Conquest of a Continent" which the authors describe as precursors to the Great Replacement conspiracy theory. Simonm223 (talk) 17:48, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Would be good enough to say "a promoter of the great replacement theory". Slatersteven (talk) 17:51, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::That would be fine by me. I'm not hung up on the word "conspiracy" so much as accurately describing the ideas he promotes. Simonm223 (talk) 17:56, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::I'm sure if I keep digging and relax my reliability standards to Wikipedia-normal I could find more meat for calling him a conspiracy theorist. But, again, I'd be satisfied for the article to call him an antisemite who promotes the Great Replacement theory. That, at least, is accurate and clear. Simonm223 (talk) 17:57, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::I don't have a problem with that. For some, it's an antisemitic conspiracy theory as well as being a xenophobic/racist/anti-liberal conspiracy theory. For others, I don't think antisemitism is necessarily part of the mix. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:02, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::This one is a bit convoluted but it also supports the overall thrust. From:

::::::::Alain de Benoist, ethnopluralism and the cultural turn in racism. By: Rueda, Daniel, Patterns of Prejudice, 0031322X, Jul2021, Vol. 55, Issue 3 {{tq|The idea of ethnopluralism has also reached the native far right on the other side of the Atlantic, in the United States. Indeed, Richard Spencer and other key intellectuals of the Alt-Right, a loose association of neo-fascist and white nationalist activists formed in the early 2010s, have overtly adopted many concepts coming from de Benoist (who visited Spencer in Washington D.C. in 2014) and the ND, starting with the idea of metapolitics.[85] Spencer has repeatedly advocated the creation of white 'ethno-states' in North America and Europe, but he has also defended the existence of other ethno-states for minorities whose culture needs to be respected. His manifesto states: 'Globalization threatens not just Europeans but every unique identity on Earth.'[86] This is a great example of how ethnopluralism, despite focusing on culture, can perfectly fit racialist approaches, a fact that is also evident when one examines the discourse of extreme-right groups such as Génération Identitaire (which has an American equivalent, Generation Identity) and its recurrent merging of the ethnic, the cultural and the racial.[87]}}

::::::::In this essay the authors spend some time comparing de Benoist to Renaud Camus - who is responsible for the Great Replacement conspiracy theory. The overall thrust of the article is to look at how ethnopluralism - the idea of an ethnostate for each ethnicity - has been used as part of a "cultural turn" within racist discourses. In this way, the call for an ethnostate for each ethnicity kind of gives way to Camus' fear that, by allowing a mixing of ethnicities the whites are being replaced and will eventually be supplanted by a non-white ethnostate. This is, on its own, a bit weak to call Spencer a conspiracy theorist, but it does provide some additional elucidation of how Spencer's avowed ethnopluralism fits into the worldview of the Great Replacement conspiracy theory. Simonm223 (talk) 17:55, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::I see that, while we were chatting, @Howardcorn33 found some sources that explicitly describe him as a conspiracy theorist and added them in. Simonm223 (talk) 17:58, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::That resolves it. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:03, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Yep, its now soruced, happy IP? Slatersteven (talk) 18:04, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Might not be a bad idea to expand with these in the body. Slatersteven (talk) 18:05, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::Yes perfect, I didn't actually think there were any sources. Happy to be proven wrong. Cheers2A00:FBC:EF1E:67F7:7151:5731:95A8:3F (talk) 18:07, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

I'm not entire comfortable with using Newsweek as a source for this claim, given the political charge involved. I'm not unwilling to be convinced, but it's not sitting right. A better source would be ideal, IMO. Pinging {{ping|Greyfell}} and {{ping|VojvodaStranih}}, who are involved. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:41, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:The Sartre quote I have on my userpage is germane here. I think the article is giving too much weight to his purported endorsement of Harris. Simonm223 (talk) 14:45, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::That sentiment is exactly why I'm a bit off about using a less-than-stellar source. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:57, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::There maybe an elemant of wp:undue here, but it seems to be accurate. Slatersteven (talk) 14:53, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::This might also be relevant https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/white-supremacist-richard-spencer-didnt-endorse-joe-biden. Slatersteven (talk) 14:57, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::I agree... Hmmm, what would you think of something like this?

::::{{tq|In 2020, Spencer tweeted an image supporting Joe Biden in the 2020 US presidential election^[Tablet]. Later, during the 2024 US presidential election, he expressed support for Kamala Harris^[Newsweek], tweeting that "Donald Trump and the MAGA movement bring nothing but stupidity and chaos." Tablet Magazine addressed this, saying "In reality, Spencer and other white supremacists have a long history of purposely adopting their opponents’ causes and pretending to back them in order to undermine them," and noting that Spencer had previous expressed support for Zionism, despite his prolific and well-documented use of anti-semitic rhetoric^[Tablet].}}

:::I think I'd be happy enough with the Newsweek use here if we had it in a broader context, including that Tablet piece and Spencer's own tweets. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:57, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Hello User:MjolnirPants, The use of the Newsweek source wasn't for the claim of Spencer supporting Harris, I intended to use it as a source for his current views on Ukraine. I just used the Harris endorsement in that section as that was the most prominent mention of Ukraine in the article. (the endorsement is already mentioned on this article and elsewhere on wiki.) Regardless of Spencer's other views, I do not think it is good for Wikipedia to have a blp with at least 3 year out of date information, especially on something such as the Russian attack on Ukraine. If a reliable source is unable to be found for the Ukraine claim, would it be a good idea to put an Template:Update section under Geopolitics? Thanks, VojvodaStranih (talk) 19:56, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::I cannot find any reliable indication that anyone cares about what Spencer has to say. Newsweek isn't really selling it as anything more than a WP:FART based on residual name recognition. To put it another way, Spencer is not recognized as an expert in geopolitics, so I would suggest that for due weight, this should be summarized as briefly as possible without giving readers the mistaken impression that it matters. Grayfell (talk) 22:02, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::I understand where you are coming from, but in that case, why does it matter that he previously supported Russia? The part about Russia mentions his ex-wife more than Spencer himself, who does not even have an article herself, and the citation used (Business Insider) has only a small section about Spencer. VojvodaStranih (talk) 22:22, 26 June 2025 (UTC) (edited 28 June 2025)

::::::Well, if none of his views matter, we sure have quite the large section about it here... PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:07, 28 June 2025 (UTC)