Talk:Royal Library of Turin

:The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There appears to be a mild consensus to not move at this time. Dr vulpes (Talk) 05:52, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

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:Royal Library of Turin → {{no redirect|Biblioteca Reale}} – [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Biblioteca+Reale%2CRoyal+Library+of+Turin&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3 Ngrams] show this to be the more common name in English-language sources, and the [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22biblioteca+reale%22&lr=lang_en&sca_esv=4fc0e7b8018da7be&source=lnt&tbs=lr%3Alang_1en%2Ccdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1930%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F31%2F2022&tbm=bks Google Books results] on which the ngrams are based show this (the library in Turin) to be the primary topic for the name Biblioteca Reale. Ham II (talk) 09:02, 7 December 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ~/Bunnypranav:<ping> 08:23, 14 December 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ~/Bunnypranav:<ping> 14:04, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

{{block indent|em=1.6|1=Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Italy, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Libraries, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts. Ham II (talk) 19:47, 13 December 2024 (UTC)}}

• Slight oppose. When 'the' is [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=the+Biblioteca+Reale%2Cthe+Royal+Library+of+Turin&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3 added to the n-grams] the results are much closer. 'Royal Library of Turin' is also better understood in English on English Wikipedia, especially since the page mentions it is part of the Royal Palace of Turin (using the English name, not the Italian, for this World Heritage Site). Randy Kryn (talk) 09:00, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
• :The results are closer in the second set of ngrams, but they still have "the Biblioteca Reale" ahead of "the Royal Library of Turin" by what looks to me like a comfortable margin. "[T]he Biblioteca Reale" wouldn't catch many image captions for, say, the supposed self-portrait by Leonardo da Vinci, so I think "Biblioteca Reale" is a more representative search term. Though I do now see in the bibliography in [https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/A_Superb_Baroque/mJvJDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22the+royal+library+of+turin%22&pg=PA365&printsec=frontcover this Google Books result] a book from 1990 with the title From Leonardo to Rembrandt: Drawings from the Royal Library of Turin, albeit with the publisher given as {{tq|Biblioteca Reale}}.
• :The name of the World Heritage Site seems to be "[https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/823 Residences of the Royal House of Savoy]", and that link, which is the English-language listing on UNESCO's World Heritage List, refers to the Royal Palace of Turin as both the {{tq|Royal Palace}} and the {{tq|Palazzo Reale}}. Ham II (talk) 09:35, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. WP:UE. Theparties (talk) 22:59, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
• :That part of policy means "follow usage in English-language sources", not "only use English words". Ham II (talk) 07:20, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
• ::Precisely. It's sad how often UE is misunderstood as "translate everything into English". -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:22, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Native names are always preferable as long as they are commonly used in English-language sources, as this is. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:21, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Even the Italian Wiki disambiguates it:Biblioteca Reale (Torino). If the name would seem ambiguous to an Itailan, it is probably best to just leave it alone. Srnec (talk) 03:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
• :[https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblioteca_reale Italian Wikipedia only lists one Royal Library in Italy]. That means there is only one building actually called the Biblioteca Reale! Obviously Italian Wikipedia obviously needs to disambiguate Biblioteca Reale, just like we have to disambiguate Royal Library! This comment therefore makes absolutely no sense. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
• ::The point is: who has any idea what the "Biblioteca Reale" is without the Turin qualifier? Not Italians. This isn't about English vs Italian but about how we talk about libraries. "Biblioteca Reale di Torino" is clear, but "Biblioteca Reale" is not. I do not know that there isn't or wasn't a Biblioteca Reale in Rome or Naples. Indeed, our article on the Biblioteca Nazionale Vittorio Emanuele III says that it was once called the Reale Biblioteca di Napoli. According to :it:Biblioteca Palatina (Parma), that too was once the Reale Biblioteca Parmense. [https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=KkxWAAAAYAAJ Here] is a source that calls the Biblioteca di Brera the Reale Biblioteca di Brera. Of course, if you can say "reale biblioteca", you can say "biblioteca reale" and [https://scholar.google.como/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22Biblioteca+Reale+di+napoli%22&btnG= sources do]. —Srnec (talk) 15:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
• :::The point is that there is only one Biblioteca Reale listed on Wikipedia so it does not need disambiguation. Since it translates as "Royal Library" there is obviously more than one on Italian Wikipedia! But not on English Wikipedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:25, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
• ::::I listed two others. Srnec (talk) 01:22, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• :::::Neither of the others is a current name for the library in question. In a [https://www.google.com/search?lr=lang_en&tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=%22Biblioteca+Reale%22&num=10 Google Books search], a [https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?start=0&q=Biblioteca+Reale&hl=en&lr=lang_en&as_sdt=0,5 Google Scholar search] and a [https://www-jstor-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Biblioteca+Reale%22&so=rel JSTOR search] for "Biblioteca Reale", the term in the English-language results predominantly refers to the library in Turin; it's in the Italian-language results that the term is ambiguous. {{pb}} Conversely, [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Royal+Library+of+Turin%22&sca_esv=b055fed9e026be17&udm=36&biw=1232&bih=560&ei=jwySZ5mQEZythbIPqY-x8QU&ved=0ahUKEwjZk5XBxIuLAxWcVkEAHalHLF44UBDh1QMIEQ&uact=5&oq=%22Royal+Library+of+Turin%22&gs_lp=EhBnd3Mtd2l6LW1vZGVsZXNzIhgiUm95YWwgTGlicmFyeSBvZiBUdXJpbiIyCBAAGIAEGLADMgcQABiwAxgeMgcQABiwAxgeMgsQABiABBiwAxiiBDILEAAYgAQYsAMYogRI3wNQAFgAcAF4AJABAJgBAKABAKoBALgBA8gBAJgCAaACA5gDAIgGAZAGBZIHATGgBwA&sclient=gws-wiz-modeless Google Books has 10 pages of results], [https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&lr=lang_en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22Royal+Library+of+Turin%22&btnG= Google Scholar has 129 results] and [https://www-jstor-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Royal+Library+of+Turin%22&so=rel JSTOR has 20 results] for "Royal Library of Turin". The strongest argument for "Royal Library of Turin" may be a WP:NATURALDAB one, if "Biblioteca Reale" really is ambiguous in English (which I don't think is borne out by usage). Ham II (talk) 10:00, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:ENGLISHTITLE. When there is a commonly used English language name for a topic, that name is preferable as a title on English WP because it is more likely to be easily understood by the largest number of readers. Station1 (talk) 08:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• :That interpretation doesn't seem (to me) to be justified by a reading of WP:ENGLISHTITLE. It's not a policy of preferring the term the largest number of English speakers will understand when there's a choice between a term derived from English and one from another language (all other things being equal). It doesn't really provide any guidance for cases where there is disagreement on what the most common term in English is. Ham II (talk) 10:00, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support. The Ngrams evidence presented by the nom is very convincing in showing that this is the COMMONNAME in English-language sources. UE/ENGLISHTITLE/whatever other shortcuts point there does not apply when the sources using the foreign-language term are in English. It does bother me that readers will not be able to easily see from the title what and where this is, but I guess that's what short descriptions and page previews are for. Toadspike [Talk] 17:03, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
• :How do you know the Biblioteca Reale picked up by ngrams is the Turin one? If you add "Torino" to the ngrams, [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Biblioteca+Reale+di+Torino%2CRoyal+Library+of+Turin&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3 it changes things]. Srnec (talk) 21:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• ::"Biblioteca Reale di Torino" not being very common in English-language sources doesn't mean that "Biblioteca Reale" for the library in Turin isn't common in English-language sources. Ham II (talk) 10:00, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose per Srnec. The present title is highly WP:RECOGNIZEable and sources show it well used in English source. By contrast, the Italian title is potentially ambiguous with other libraries and ngrams show "Royal Library of Turin" holding a lead over "Biblioteca Reale di Torino" in recent sources.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)