Talk:Samurai#Separate section needed for claimed foreign samurai

{{See also|Racial identity of Sakanoue no Tamuramaro}}

In Japan, the words samurai and bushi have been used for over 1000 years. Therefore, there are many proverbs related to samurai and bushi.[https://www.touken-world.jp/proverb/] However, the proverb "For a Samurai to be brave, he must have a bit of Black blood" does not exist.[http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/09/07/the-world-of-sakanouye-no-tamuramaro-black-shogun-of-early-japan/]

I would like to suggest creating a section with the above content. This proverb is often used in conjunction with Sakanoue no Tamuramaro, but it is also used in a variety of situations, including Yasuke and the Sengoku period in general. If you search for it, you will find that it is used not just a few times, but many times in many places. 221.184.105.236 (talk) 06:58, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

:Your sources don't actually prove it doesn't exist. One mentions it, and the other doesn't Tinynanorobots (talk) 07:20, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

::Are you telling me to prove the devil? 221.184.105.236 (talk) 12:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

:::Nope. Japan has probably many proverbs, and when one is not on a list, that doesn't mean it isn't a proverb. I believe you that it isn't a real proverb. The sources on Racial identity of Sakanoue no Tamuramaro point to that. However, I don't think it is WP:DUE on this page. It appears to be WP:FRINGE Tinynanorobots (talk) 14:59, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

::It's too unfair to ask him to prove the devil, so I'll help him.

::*[https://quote.org/quote/for-a-samurai-to-be-brave-he-613159 Links to sources written by him.]
"Often cited as a Japanese Proverb, however, there is no evidence of its general use."

::*弥助 弥助：侍伝説の歴史学的検証(能出新陸 著) ISBN 9781763781108 kindle 90%～92%

::**メディアを通じた日本文化の拡大 § 主張の起源

::***ウマル・ジョンソンという、アフロセントリックな修辞で知られる論争的な人物が、「侍になるためには黒人の血が必要だ」と発言しているという主張が取りあげられています。この発言の起源は完全に現代発のものであり、日本発のものではありません。（略）侍の地位がアフリカ系の祖先や黒人の血に依存していたという歴史的証拠は、日本にも他のどの国にも存在しません。

::**メディアを通じた日本文化の拡大 § 日本の資料には根拠がない

::***日本の資料には根拠がない「侍になるためには黒人の血が必要だ」という主張を裏付ける日本の歴史的な資料や信頼できる学術的な根拠は一切存在しないことを強調することが重要です。このようなフレーズは日本語の資料に現れず、侍がアフリカ系の血統を持つ必要があるという考えは、歴史的根拠のない現代の捏造です。

::**メディアを通じた日本文化の拡大 § 日本における「黒い血の誤解」

::***日本語の比喩表現では、「黒い血」や黒さに関する言及は、しばしば人の無慈悲さや冷酷さを表すメタファーとして使われます。これは人種や民族に関連するものではなく、アフリカ系を意味するものでもありません。

::**メディアを通じた日本文化の拡大 § 文化の盗用とDEIにおける偽善

::***これは歴史的にも言語的にも根拠のない主張であり、日本の歴史や文化をアフロセントリズムの議題に合わせて共用しようとする明らかな試みです。

::**There is an English version of this book, but since I don't have it, I've written the source in Japanese as written in the Japanese version. Also, I use e-books instead of books. I'll try to translate it just to be sure, but the English version may have different sentences.

::**Expansion of Japanese culture through media § Origin of the claim

::***Umar Johnson, a controversial figure known for his Afrocentric rhetoric, is alleged to have said, "It takes black blood to be a samurai." (snip) The statement is of entirely modern origin and has no Japanese origins. There is no historical evidence in Japan or any other country that samurai status was dependent on African ancestry or black blood.

::**Expansion of Japanese culture through media § Japanese materials have no basis

::***It is important to emphasize that there are no Japanese historical sources or reliable academic evidence to support the claim that "you need black blood to be a samurai." Such a phrase does not appear in Japanese language sources, and the idea that samurai needed to be of African descent is a modern fabrication with no historical basis.

::**Expansion of Japanese culture through the media § “Black blood misunderstanding” in Japan

::***In Japanese figures of speech, references to "black blood" or blackness are often used as metaphors for a person's ruthlessness or ruthlessness. This is not related to race or ethnicity, and does not imply African descent.

::**Expanding Japanese culture through the media § Cultural appropriation and hypocrisy in DEI

::***This is a historically and linguistically unfounded claim and a clear attempt to co-opt Japanese history and culture to suit an Afrocentric agenda.

::*First, translate the English sentence. Japanese has a rich vocabulary and expressions, and although the content changes slightly, the meanings are almost the same. () is an example of how to rephrase it.
English;For a Samurai to be brave, he must have a bit of Black blood.
japanese;侍が勇敢であるためには、黒人の血を少しは受け継がなければならない(侍は勇ましくあるために、黒い血がちょっとは流れていなければならない)
Search on Weblio. The same result is obtained when searching Kotobank. Does not exist.

::**[https://www.weblio.jp/content_find/contains/0/%E4%BE%8D%E3%81%AF 侍は] 4hit

::**[https://www.weblio.jp/content_find/contains/0/%E4%BE%8D%E3%81%8C 侍が] 2hit

::**[https://www.weblio.jp/content_find/contains/0/%E6%AD%A6%E5%A3%AB%E3%81%AF 武士は] 3hit

::**[https://www.weblio.jp/content_find/contains/0/%E6%AD%A6%E5%A3%AB%E3%81%8C 武士が] 1hit

::**[https://www.weblio.jp/content_find/contains/0/%E9%BB%92%E4%BA%BA%E3%81%AE%E8%A1%80 黒人の血] 0hit

::**[https://www.weblio.jp/content_find/contains/0/%E9%BB%92%E3%81%84%E8%A1%80 黒い血] 5hit

::110.131.150.214 (talk) 15:10, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

:::I forgot to mention the most important thing. 能出新陸 (Alaric Naudé) is a linguist, a doctor of education and a doctor of social sciences. 110.131.150.214 (talk) 15:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

:::I apologize for repeating this, but there is also a paper on this claim that "the roots of the samurai are black."[https://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/handle/2433/71097]

:::I don't think it's pointless to include and emphasize correct information. However, I think he suggests using See also because I don't think it needs to take up a lot of space on this page. 110.131.150.214 (talk) 15:32, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

:::Thank you. You said everything I wanted to say without my knowledge. Sakagami Tamuramaro was one of the early Samurai of Japan who became the supreme Shogun.

:::Some say he was black, and some believe them, but they are wrong. Furthermore, they claim a proverb that does not exist. This is disrespectful not only to the Japanese but also to blacks.

:::Wikipedia doesn't need to point out mistakes, they just state the facts. 221.184.105.236 (talk) 15:46, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

:::Thank you for the sources. I still don't think it belongs here. The article on the Moon doesn't say that it isn't made of cheese. The quote seems to have originated in relation to the theory that Japanese had "black" ancestry. Although it was originally meant dark skin Malaysians, not Africans. That is more relevant to articles specifically about Japan and ethnicity. Like Ethnic groups of Japan or Black people in Japan or persons that the quote is associated with. Like Sakanoue no Tamuramaro or Jimmu (who I believe it was attributed to). Tinynanorobots (talk) 17:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

::::The proverb "For a Samurai to be brave, he must have a bit of Black blood" exists in Japan.

::::Because there were many black samurai in Japan.

::::The reason for this is that their first shogun, Sasanoue no Tamuramaro, was black.

::::The roots of Japanese samurai are black. The Japanese are hiding it.

::::This is what people who believe in the existence of this proverb think.[https://www.levelman.com/where-black-people-fx-shogun/][https://perspectivesinanthropology.com/2024/01/01/black-japanese-the-african-diaspora-in-japan/][https://atlantablackstar.com/2014/09/07/the-world-of-sakanouye-no-tamuramaro-black-shogun-of-early-japan/][https://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/handle/2433/71097]

::::Sakanoue no Tamuramaro is just one part of the process, and their real claim is that samurai are of black descent. In other words, the subject of this proverb is not Tamuramaro, but the samurai. I think that proverbs and samurai are related.

::::This proverb does not exist. Japanese people's roots are not black. It has been denied by many anthropological studies.

::::Things that are commonplace are not studied or recorded. Proving it is nothing but the devil's proof.

::::Why are you making the decision alone rather than discussing whether or not to include it in the article? Is this article yours? 140.227.46.9 (talk) 02:24, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

:::::I am just the only one who has responded. If you had an account, it would be different. You can also ask other places along the guidelines of WP:APPNOTE. I suggest trying posting here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Japan], you should also read this:[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_requests]. If someone adds it, I won't oppose it. Tinynanorobots (talk) 15:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

::::::Don't worry. I can do that much work for you. However, this editorial proposal was submitted just the other day. Let's wait at least a week and see if there are any objections.

::::::I'm currently in hospital, so I can only work on it when I have free time and can go somewhere with free WiFi. Tanukisann (talk) 05:52, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

:::::::Since no one else seems to have an opinion, tanukisann, I think you can start working on it, when tanukisann can spare the time. 211.9.246.5 (talk) 05:04, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

::::::::As promised, I have installed a proverb. The IP editor's suggestion to move the detailed content here has not been implemented as it would require extensive editing. Instead, I added some of the content from another article that was removed as inappropriate.

::::::::If there is anything that bothers you, please correct it as appropriate.

::::::::On a separate note, I have also made a small addition regarding formations, so please take a look.

::::::::Well, since it's the end of the year, I've been kicked out of the hospital where I was hospitalized, and I'm going to bed. Tanukisann (talk) 16:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

::::Whoa, wait, think about it. It is clearly a misconception that the theory seems to have arisen in connection with the theory that the Japanese have black ancestry.

::::Alexander Francis Chamberlain was the first to start saying the strangest of theories, in 1911. Georges Maget's letter was published as a paper in 1883. That makes Maget's claim earlier than Chamberlain's.

::::It is unclear why Maget said that black blood was necessary. Maybe Alaric Naudé is right and Maget wrote it without knowing what the Japanese word means.

::::One thing is for sure, there is absolutely no relationship between the two. They are connected on their own by people of today.

::::I agree that Chamberlain claims that Sakanoue no Tamuramaro is black, which is a heretical theory. However, this proverb is not about black people. This isn't even a story about Sakanoue no Tamuramaro. It's about samurai.

::::I think the content of the relevant section should be moved to this article. The original proposer did not propose such a drastic edit. He points out that such a saying is sometimes rumored to exist, but that no such thing exists, and urges readers to refer to another page for more information. I guess he is being modest. 110.131.150.214 (talk) 13:24, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

:::This book by Naude has been brought to RSN before and it was unanimously - with the exception of a single IP - agreed to be a case of WP:Fringe and potentially WP:SPS. (here) Relm (talk) 22:41, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

::::I have removed the section, it was very much WP:COATRACK being pushed, seemingly, by fans of Alaric Naudé due to a tweet on twitter which he responded to, starting around here [https://x.com/Goryodynasty/status/1864908926426452278]. Emm90 (talk) 04:36, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

I have removed the text {{tq|After the Edo period, it came to cover all of society, and although the shogunate sometimes invited monks as advisors, the nobility was excluded from the government. As a result, samurai began to assume all civilian roles, and from the Edo period onward, samurai shifted their activities from military to political administration. In addition, those who were newly promoted to the shogunate or domain in recognition of talents unrelated to martial arts, such as literature and scholarship, were also given the status of samurai. It can be said that the difference between a samurai and a military officer appears in such a place.}} from the Edo Period because it was all unsourced, and because it seems to directly contradict sourced information. For instance, [https://www.routledge.com/The-Nature-of-Japanese-Governance-and-Seikai-Tensin-in-Postwar-Japan/Park/p/book/9781003319207 The Nature of Japanese Governance and Seikai-Tensin in Postwar Japan] reads {{tq|the samurai, including buke, did not make up the whole ruling class in premodern Japan. There was kuge, another race of nobility different from buke. Second, but not less important, the Japanese ruling class in premodern times-including kuge, buke, and the samurai in general-essentially were all bureaucrats at various levels}} which seemingly contradicts the statement that samurai "assumed all civilian roles". It does also say that the buke were the top samurai from the most prestigious military families (p.15-16). There is no source evidence supporting the statement that "other samurai were just called officials", and re-iterating that samurai are sometimes called buke seemed entirely redundant so I just removed that section as well. Emm90 (talk) 04:17, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

:I agree with your edits. There does seem to be some contradictions here. If calling the samurai the ruling class or nobility is questionable in the Edo period, then it is certainly so in the Heian and Kamakura periods. I am trying to find where the second sentence in the article is supported in the source cited.

:The statement that samurai assumed all civilian roles, is probably means "non-military" roles, as a government official isn't a civilian. Samurai were always had administrative duties, it was just in times of peace they did less fighting. Also poor samurai did work like making umbrellas. DrGlef (talk) 16:25, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected|Samurai|answered=yes}}

In the second paragraph the sentence; "After the Minamoto defeated the Taira in 1185, Minamoto no Yoritomo established the Kamakura shogunate, a parallel government that did not surplant the imperial court.[4][5]", uses a fictional word "surplant" when it should use "supplant". Eliseq2 (talk) 12:02, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

• {{done}}. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 13:07, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

:I just want to say (because I can't help myself), but "surplant" is an actual word. It's just Scots, you can find it in the [https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/surplant#:~:text=%C2%B6SURPLANT%2C%20v.,outdo%2C%20with%20substitution%20of%20pref. Scottish National Dictionary] and also as a variant of supplant in the [https://www.oed.com/dictionary/supplant_v?tab=forms Oxford English Dictionary]. Emm90 (talk) 09:34, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

Some changes were made regarding "vagueness" with reference to the talk page. I actually don't understand it. The talk page, especially this discussion shows that there is some vagueness surrounding. The main part of the change was to remove "bushi" from the first sentence. There are several sources that say that bushi and samurai and used interchangeably in English, and that samurai is used to refer to every Japanese warrior. So now the lede doesn't match the article. I think this could be split into a bushi article and a samurai article. The Samurai article would mostly be about the Edo period Samurai and the Bushi article would be about Japanese warriors in general. The main difficulty I see in this, is that many sources treat samurai to mean Japanese warriors from the late Heian period onward, and not just warriors that were vassals. This is also the case for some Japanese sources. Does anyone know of another solution? DrGlef (talk) 15:21, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

:@Hemiauchenia @Koriodan, I would appreciate your participation in this discussion. DrGlef (talk) 17:52, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected|Samurai|answered=yes}}

2nd sentence of the "Kamagura shogunate"-section: change Heiji Incident link to Heiji rebellion

3rd sentence of same section: move comma to be after 'that', edit Taira Kiyomori to Taira no Kiyomori, and link Taira no Kiyomori's page: "After that, Taira no Kiyomori practically controlled the court." Chyrion (talk) 10:55, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

:{{done}} Day Creature (talk) 15:59, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected|Samurai|answered=no}}

Under "invasion of Korea":

Change "In spite of the superiority of Japanese land forces," to "All reaching strategic stalemates on land,"

Change "The causes of the failure included Korean naval superiority (which, led by Admiral Yi Sun-sin, harassed Japanese supply lines continuously throughout the wars, resulting in supply shortages on land), the commitment of sizable Ming forces to Korea," to "The causes of the failure included the Korean-Chinese allied forces' naval superiority (which, led by Admiral Chen Lin and Yi Sun-sin, harassed Japanese supply lines continuously throughout the wars, resulting in supply shortages on land), the commitment of sizable Chinese forces armed with advanced artillery and professional cavalry to Korea,"

Change "During the second campaign in 1597, Korean and Ming forces proved far more resilient and with the support of continued Korean naval superiority, managed to limit Japanese gains to parts of southeastern Korea." to "During the second campaign in 1597, Korean and Chinese forces proved far more resilient and with the support of continued naval superiority of the allied fleets, managed to limit Japanese gains to parts of southeastern Korea." AnthonyRampart (talk) 05:46, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

In the last paragraph of the introduction where the abolishment of the samurai during the Meiji Restoration is discussed, there is the statement "The samurai specialized in pre-gunpowder weapons that took years to master" when expanding on how modern firearms require less training and therefore commoners are able to be enlisted to use them when needed. This last point is clearly valid, but changing the wording of the quoted portion to exclude "pre-gunpowder" as samurai during the Sengoku and Edo periods specialized in multiple types of gunpowder weaponry - matchlocks, cannons, etc as primary weapons. Training and mastery of these weapons was required, and did not enjoy the ease of use that modern firearms do.

Therefore the proposed change is: "The samurai specialized in pre-gunpowder weapons that took years to master" to "The samurai specialized in weapons that took years to master". This small change early on in the page would help lessen further propagation of the incorrect understanding that samurai didn't use gunpowder weaponry as primary weaponry before the Bakumatsu period. 2001:1970:482B:4100:A3B6:A06F:3347:1FFC (talk) 01:37, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:The samurai did use gunpowder weapons but so could peasants. When rifles came along, the traditionsl weapons became obsolete, which meant that the army could make do with peasant soldiers. Kurzon (talk) 04:56, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected|Samurai|answered=no}}

In the samurai ranks section, hizamurai (Ordinary Samurai) should be changed to jizamurai (Samurai of the land) Keverclin159 (talk) 22:19, 16 June 2025 (UTC)