Talk:Shubhanshu Shukla#Seat

This guy is flying on axiom 4, why is this article deleted — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB0C:65A:2200:494:C1C9:B549:13D0 (talk) 12:33, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

:I agree that he has now acquired new, independent notability, and I've restored the article. Jpatokal (talk) 12:15, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

::Great! For Poland it's a mission where second Pole went to spacer, and it's good to learn more about Uznanski's comrades. 85.221.140.251 (talk) 18:03, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Gaganyaaninsignia1-patch.png
• Gaganyaaninsignia2-patch.png

You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:52, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

Restored good version of this page. This page is facing lot of ip edits which is quite not good. I am requesting for protection. Ghosted Editor (talk) 04:35, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

{{Ping|Ghosted Editor}} Responding to your [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Koshuri_Sultan&diff=prev&oldid=1297497219 message], I say It is important because this spaceflight is not from India but the Indian government has paid heavily for his seat to foreign agencies which allowed him to go to space. Koshuri ^(グ) 15:29, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:Yes so what? does that make any sense to write it on top? Ghosted Editor (talk) 15:30, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:Do you see any Astronaut which have written a price tag on the very top of their bio? Ghosted Editor (talk) 15:32, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:Also every Astronaut who go Soyuz MS mission (eg:Jonny Kim) or any Cosmonaut who go Crew Dragon missions (for example Kirill Peskov) do you see a price tag which both of them are expeditionary mission in nature (i,e 6months at least) for which both {{flag|USA}} and {{flag|Russia}} have to pay many many money to each other but none of them has a price tag on the top of their bio. Ghosted Editor (talk) 15:37, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::See WP:OSE, this argument won't work here. There is a difference here because multiple sources have reported that india bought the seat for this spaceflight for their astronaut for a very steep price and without it this astronaut would not be in the space. Koshuri ^(グ) 16:07, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Yes that's why it is already written in the bio but it does not make sense to write twice and also on the top. An Astronaut page top of the bio contains generally the list of missions and days may be spent in space. Later this line will be an understatement because he is going to fly Soyuz MS also may be in the future. So at that time do you want to make a transaction-like line like how much of our Government spent for his seat which utterly does not matter. But anyway, it is written in the bio on his axiom mission 4 section. So end of this argument. Ghosted Editor (talk) 16:15, 26 June 2025 (UTC) sock

:It is not "a foreign agency", it is a for-profit private company - it is expected that they will be paid for it. This information is still undue for an article on the astronaut who has little to do expect for going on the mission he has been selected for. Even in spaceflights of government agencies, private companies are involved in the designing or manufacturing processes, and are paid by the said agency for these services, that still does not merit inclusion in the astronaut's biography. Biographies should be focused on the subject's works in space. If you wish to include this piece of information, Axiom Mission 4 and Axiom Space is where you should go. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 17:15, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::The very fact that he is being sent to space through a private company makes this information due for inclusion in the lead. The price of his seat should be mentioned we can cover additional details later on, you are welcome to write a summary of the body and I don't think you could do that without mentioning the price tag since it covered in body as well. Koshuri ^(グ) 17:22, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::No, it very much isn't. Unless, you can gain consensus in an WP:RFC, that all astronauts (at least those in private spaceflights) should have the cost of their mission included in the lead, we should not add it. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 17:26, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::::That won't work. Every single page will require separate consensus. Here it is against you. Koshuri ^(グ) 18:06, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::@Koshuri Sultan There should be no exception here. Either create a RFC and put it on all such pages including this. This selective addition (especially quoting the Wire source) which says it's not a official gov confirmation but a personal opinion of someone. This shouldn't be used Unless we have a strong RFC or a official confirmation. Editking100 (talk) 18:49, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::@Koshuri Sultan Neither the Axiom 4 page, nor the Hungarian and Polish astronaut pages (who went together), have this included speculation (without any official proof) by the way. Editking100 (talk) 18:56, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

• Agree with Koshuri Sultan here, the price of his seat on the spaceflight should be included in the lead since it is an important aspect of this mission and his role in it. Azuredivay (talk) 17:52, 26 June 2025 (UTC)
• :@Azuredivay Disagree here. Such details are not mentioned in any of the 12 private astronauts pages who I looked up until now, who flied in space or outer orbit. Either gain an WP:RFC for all and include it everywhere or don't do it here too.
• :Secondly, the Wire source clearly mentioned that there is No official statement and it is just as per a official and it's is linked with a question mark. So we should refrain from using until official confirmation.
• :So as per norm it must be removed. Editking100 (talk) 18:38, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:@Koshuri Sultan Confirmed by whom? A PoV personal in the Wire. Get official government confirmation or WP:RSN sources who cite official government confirmation and not speculate like the Wire article. Editking100 (talk) 18:52, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::A figure that was deemed speculative was removed from the Dennis Tito article, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dennis_Tito&diff=prev&oldid=1222455140 here]. I would say under WP:BLP, if it is to be included, it must be very well sourced. If money is known to have been paid, but the amount paid is uncertain, I would say that only the fact that money was paid for his slot should be included, not speculation about the amount. I think everyone understands the distinction between agencies buying a seat for an astronaut, and space tourism--Wehwalt (talk) 19:05, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:::@Wehwalt if it comes from a official government/government body source (yes). But currently neither there is any official confirmation, nor this norm is followed in any of the two dozen plus private space flight astronaut pages, nor in their mission pages. So we should refrain quoting speculative personal opinions in news sources (who also mentions that it's not official). Editking100 (talk) 19:13, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::::I would not insist on it being official, but at least a major news source prepared to say it without equivocation. Wehwalt (talk) 19:17, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

• See also Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spaceflight#Does the alleged cost of seat in a private spaceflight merit inclusion in the astronaut's article?. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 20:04, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

(undent) The cost of the seat has been mentioned in reliable sources including [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz09lx2gjm4o BBC]: {{tq|Isro ... has paid 5bn rupees ($59m; £43m) to secure a seat for Group Captain Shukla}}. Sure, there's some debate on the exact figure, but the ballpark of $60m is not disputed and there is no issue with reporting it in Wikipedia, as long as we source it appropriately.

I also think it does warrant mention, because the price has been a major news talking point in India, here's a selection of articles talking about it: [https://www.wionews.com/science/isro-shubhanshu-shukla-axiom-4-space-mission-ticket-price-cost-1749537739392] [https://www.businesstoday.in/visualstories/news/shubhanshu-shuklas-axiom-seat-costs-rs-500-crore-heres-what-india-gets-in-return-241286-11-06-2025] [https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editorial/qualified-cheer-on-shubhanshu-shukla-axiom-4-mission/article69736282.ece] Basically, it's a lot of money to be spending for what some view as a joyride that does not directly contribute to India's own space program. This is also why we can't directly compare to any other astronauts, because unlike India, eg. Poland and Hungary are not going to be flying their own astronauts to space on their own hardware anytime soon. Asamboi (talk) 23:59, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::Yes the figure is largely reported as 60 million.[https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/who-is-shubhanshu-shukla-the-iaf-officer-heading-to-the-iss-on-axiom-4-mission/article69677616.ece][https://www.news18.com/world/who-is-shubhanshu-shukla-indian-air-force-pilot-flying-to-iss-today-on-axiom-4-mission-9402767.html][https://www.news18.com/education-career/cleared-upsc-nda-exam-studied-mtech-at-iisc-bengaluru-know-shubhanshu-shuklas-education-journey-9403180.html] There is no dispute about the figure, thus no reason not to include it. Koshuri ^(グ) 02:55, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

:::If there is no dispute, it should probably be included. I get the feeling there's some reason people want to exclude the figure that's not being said. Wehwalt (talk) 19:20, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

::::@Wehwalt: Firstly, we typically don't include mission costs in astronaut articles, even when numerous articles make a direct connection between them and their respective mission costs: Neil Armstrong, Sally Ride, Mark Kelly, etc. I have previously affirmed that I support and inclusion of the cost at the project's article, but not in the astronaut's. Secondly, even if it is significant enough to be included in this article, it is nowhere sufficient to be included in the lead. Thirdly, the text is worded in a way that makes him seem like a sponsored space tourist rather than that an astronaut. It reads as if someone bought a business class ticket and flew to space, not that they underwent full professional astronautical training, and that the cost is inclusive of that, as well as the payloads, scientific instruments, etc. which is attested in sources but not touched upon in the article. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 19:38, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::@CX Zoom Agree with the explanation given here. Editking100 (talk) 22:50, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

:::@Koshuri Sultan as I mentioned earlier, there are dozens of such private missions and neither of them nor the astronaut pages of people who went in them have such information included in their wikipages. Same should be followed here until a RFC is done and a unilateral consensus is reached. Editking100 (talk) 22:47, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

• I am seeing no issue with inclusion. If there are problems with any other articles, then I would recommend to fix them instead of ignoring the sourced content here which is well observed by both the regional and international sources. 83.179.19.166 (talk) 19:31, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

:@Asamboi You are factually wrong, look at the Axiom 4 wiki pages's Gaganyaan section with sources attached. It clear how this includes reaserch that will be used in future mission and is not a joy ride as to what you say. Neither such information is put up in previous such instances including all of the astronauts involved in them and their pages. Editking100 (talk) 22:43, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

:Moved from WT:SPF to make it easier to keep track of discussion and gauge consensus. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 00:29, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

• Well if it's an "alleged" cost, the it definitely shouldn't be in as it seems there isn't a reliable source for the actual number paid (by whomever.) We're an encyclopaedia not a gossip column. And I don't think we include prices paid for anything else that someone has across the project (their homes, education etc etc.), again we're an encyclopaedia not an accountancy firm. Canterbury Tail talk 19:27, 26 June 2025 (UTC)
• 1) What User:Canterbury Tail said above.
  2) Based on the general rule of notability, I'd ask: does it matter? Is the price really important? Would it matter much to readers in five or twenty years from now? --CiaPan (talk) 19:58, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

It doesn't. Completely agree with @Canterbury Tail and @CiaPan.

It doesn't matter at all. Neither similar other private mission/astronaut pages have included such information in their wikipage. Also, here the source is based on a POV of a person who is speculating the number and does not have official govt/agency confirmation regarding the price pay act nor the actual price.(Even the publisher confirms that it's not official).

All in all, we cant put speculative statements in Wikipedia.

Editking100 (talk) 20:34, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:Well, it's not like there aren't speculative statements on Wikipedia. But in the article in question, I tended to agree that based on present information the alleged price should not be included. But if it was known with certainty, from official sources or from a highly reliable secondary source like a major news agency stating it without equivocation, it might be worth including. It would depend on the situation and I prefer not to judge in advance.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:30, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:The cost of the seat has been mentioned in reliable sources including [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz09lx2gjm4o BBC]: {{tq|Isro ... has paid 5bn rupees ($59m; £43m) to secure a seat for Group Captain Shukla}}. Sure, there's some debate on the exact figure, but the ballpark of $60m is not disputed.

:I also think it does warrant mention, because this has been a major news talking point in India, here's a selection of articles talking about it: [https://www.wionews.com/science/isro-shubhanshu-shukla-axiom-4-space-mission-ticket-price-cost-1749537739392] [https://www.businesstoday.in/visualstories/news/shubhanshu-shuklas-axiom-seat-costs-rs-500-crore-heres-what-india-gets-in-return-241286-11-06-2025] [https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editorial/qualified-cheer-on-shubhanshu-shukla-axiom-4-mission/article69736282.ece] Basically, it's a lot of money to be spending for what some view as a joyride that does not directly contribute to India's own space program. This is also why we can't directly compare to any other astronauts, because unlike India, eg. Poland and Hungary are not going to be flying their own astronauts to space on their own hardware anytime soon. Asamboi (talk) 22:51, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

You are factually wrong, look at the Axiom 4 wiki pages's Gaganyaan section with sources attached which provides the details of the objectives here. Its clear how this includes reaserch that will be used in future mission and is not a joy ride as to what you say. Neither such information is put up in previous such instances including all of the astronauts involved in them and their pages.

Same should be done until a RFC is proposed for all.

Editking100 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 22:57, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

:Agreed. India has paid for extensive astronaut training, access to the training program that the person in question can being back info on, research and stay on the ISS. This is absolutely no different to any other country putting an astronaut up on the ISS. There's nothing special going on here it's normal and expected. Canterbury Tail talk 23:30, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

::Then why are editors so sensitive? Are there implications in some sources that he's a space tourist? Wehwalt (talk) 00:55, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

:::The sources only mention the cost of the seat,[https://thewire.in/space/know-your-spacemen-is-shubhanshu-shuklas-axiom-4-different-from-rakesh-sharmas-in-1984?mid_related_new][https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crenw0nyqnqo] not for his training or any made up criteria and editor is talking about.

:::{{ping|Wehwalt|Canterbury Tail}} The editor who is arguing the most above against the addition is currently reported for his pro Hindutva editing. The question that why are they are suppressing information about the cost can be easily answered. It is because they don't understand that Wikipedia is not a place to spread fake pride for any country. ₹500 crores were spent on him just for promoting the BJP regime. Check [https://x.com/JayantBhandari5/status/1937717615277044204 this tweet]. I encourage you guys to stick to standards of addition of massively reliably sourced info, and avoid buying any arguments based on dubious "but look at other articles" which are being made only to suppress the info. ViraAndhini (talk) 02:57, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

::::@ViraAndhini Wait what! For your kind information, we can't cite random Twitter/X claims here. We should follow what's the norm/RFC (if any created) in similar mission/astronaut content pages.

::::Also refrain from making personal attacks on other editors Editking100 (talk) 03:08, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Which attack? You are the one attacking by calling me a new account when I am here since 2021. I cited that Tweet only to provide context behind edits like yours. It wasn't meant for addition. Don't misrepresent my comments. ViraAndhini (talk) 03:33, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::@ViraAndhini with your first ever edit being this one, especially out of context here? Editking100 (talk) 03:38, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::You are saying people must not make their first edit on articles such as this one. That sounds silly. ViraAndhini (talk) 03:44, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::@ViraAndhini I have reported this in the Arb Enforcement. Certainly admins will find it out how your first talk page discussion was to lash out personal attacks and your first edit was to revert and engage in a edit warring here. (Similarly as the IP Guy before). Editking100 (talk) 04:22, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::@Editking100

:::::::::Thank you for your feedback. I understand now that my approach was not aligned with Wikipedia’s standards for sourcing and conduct. I appreciate the clarification.

:::::::::I did not intend to engage in any personal attacks or edit warring, and I sincerely apologize if my words came across that way. I will refrain from further discussion here and review the relevant guidelines to ensure future contributions are in line with expectations.

:::::::::Regards ViraAndhini (talk) 06:15, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

::::While I possibly could not discount any internal motivations on the part of other editors to edit the way they are doing. What specifically do you mean by {{tq|₹500 crores were spent on him just for promoting the BJP regime}}? India has a consistently high activity output by ISRO, under governments led by all parties. It was established by the efforts of Jawaharlal Nehru, and received strong backing from Indira & Rajiv Gandhi even when it suffered a series of failures and confidence was low to give it more funds. While incumbent Modi did take credit for the recent trip to ISS (which is natural for every Indin politician), I see the "just for promoting the BJP regime" as an WP:OR, and the tweet you linked above as an opinion piece, not a news item or reviewed academic material. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 08:02, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Further, I also fail to see the "false pride" in it. Numerous news organisations in India have reported on the cost, including those known to be Modi-friendly. I don't think that the mission having a cost is in dispute, no one thinks a private company gave a free ride to India. What I do think is that the cost is still undue to be added on the astronaut's article, and even if it is added, definitely undue to be added to the lead, but some editors aren't ready to compromise on at any level. Everyone here is trying to go all in into whatever they think the article should look like. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 08:26, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

:This is not about my opinion, or any individual opinion. The cost of his seat has been reported widely in reliable sources and has been rather controversial, therefore as an encyclopedia representing WP:NPOV we should report the controversy and summarize the main arguments on both sides. I do agree that this belongs in the body of the article, not the lead.

:(And for what it's worth, I think it's a perfectly reasonable investment, and I watched both the Ax-4 launch and docking live myself.) Asamboi (talk) 05:53, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

::@Asamboi I somewhat agree to your this claim. You can put it to controversy section. But think once again, should it be here on the astronaut page or the mission page. I don't think how the controversy is justified here (as it's not directly related to him) and it'll be WP:UNDUE here but it can be put up in the mission page.

::Also I restored previously unexplained removal of talk page discussions including several editors. Editking100 (talk) 06:15, 28 June 2025 (UTC)