Talk:Taiwan#NPOV

{{edit extended-protected|Taiwan|answered=yes}}

Lead section:

{{blockquote|Taiwan,[II][i] officially the Republic of China (ROC),[I] is a country[27] island and partially recognized state in East Asia.[l] The main island of Taiwan, also known as Formosa, lies between the East and South China Seas... }}

Explanation: The UN as well as most countries do not officially recognize Taiwan (or the Republic of China). TheLatinNerd (talk) 20:56, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{not done}}: per prior RFC Wikipedia:TWRFC Cannolis (talk) 23:59, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:Yes. Agree . It is an area, not a country according UN definition. 2607:FA49:2A3A:6F00:186B:DAD4:4B85:F231 (talk) 06:03, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

::It may be worth clarifying again that Wikipedia is not a UN document and need not abide by how an organization chooses to define things. The UN, formed in 1945, also has member states, and does not strictly define countries. Taiwan’s foreign relations and political status are covered in this article plus two other main articles. Butterdiplomat (talk) 15:50, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:Reliable sources indicate that it is a self-governing island, Wikipedia is pretty unique here in calling it a country. Feels like original research. 2600:1007:B051:74F0:0:14:928F:F201 (talk) 12:07, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

I think the lead part is controversial.

According to the guidance on this Talk page, I have initially read some of the previous discussions, including but not limited to WP:TWRFC, Talk:Taiwan/Archive_35#Description_of_status, and Talk:Taiwan/Archive_41#Could_we_add_the_line_"country_with_limited_recognition"?. (Of course, I am very likely to have missed key information; please point it out.) However, I am confused about some of the arguments.

"country with xxx" violates RFC?

In all the discussions, the most common comment was guiding the editor to read WP:TWRFC, and subsequent modifications should not violate WP:TWRFC. The intent of this RFC was to choose a word between "country" and "state" in the edit war, and the community chose "country." However, some believe that the phrase "with limited recognition" violates the RFC. ({{ping|Butterdiplomat|p=}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taiwan/Archive_41#c-Butterdiplomat-20240728201100-ZeehanLin-20240728191600 here] and {{ping|0xDeadbeef|p=}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taiwan/Archive_41#c-0xDeadbeef-20240729172200-ZeehanLin-20240729130300 here])

I don't understand it very well. I think it doesn't violate RFC if other words are not used to replace "country". The discussion in RFC is very complex, and the editors cannot cover everything, so they only completed the original two choices, and it cannot be inferred that these proposals were rejected.

False analogy among Taiwan, Kosovo and Breakaway states?

Many comments argue that there is a false analogy between Taiwan, Kosovo, and breakaway states. ({{ping|Horse Eye Jack|p=}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taiwan/Archive_30#c-Horse_Eye_Jack-2020-05-02T19:00:00.000Z-The_Four_Deuces-2020-05-02T18:43:00.000Z here] and {{ping|Remsense|p=}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taiwan/Archive_41#c-Remsense-20240726080400-ZeehanLin-20240726073000 here])The ROC joined the United Nations early on, but at that time, they believed they were China. The ROC government did not consider themselves no longer China and merely Taiwan until at least 1991, by which time their remaining official diplomatic relations were already few and mostly under the name of China. Now that Wikipedia treats Taiwan and the Republic of China during the Mainland period as separate entries, it is problematic to claim that Taiwan has long had many international recognitions and diplomatic relations. They recognized the ROC, but not necessarily "Taiwan." This analogy seems appropriate.

No need to specify in the first paragraph?

Some editors believe that it has already been clearly stated in the following paragraphs and does not need to be mentioned in the first paragraph. （{{ping|SmokeyJoe|p=}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taiwan/Archive_35#c-SmokeyJoe-2021-09-21T04:38:00.000Z-Marcywinograd-2021-09-18T23:34:00.000Z here], {{ping|Khajidha|p=}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taiwan/Archive_35#c-Khajidha-2021-09-20T21:20:00.000Z-De_wafelenbak-2021-09-20T13:35:00.000Z here] and {{ping|Butterdiplomat|p=}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taiwan/Archive_41#c-Butterdiplomat-20240726193600-ZeehanLin-20240726191300 here]))I think it is necessary. Compared to some other countries, those not marked in the first paragraph hardly cause any controversy. Controversial political entities are more or less explained in the first paragraph, with Taiwan being the only exception.

I feel that these questions haven't been answered well. Often, they are archived by the archiving bot or overshadowed by new comments, leading to them being ignored. It seems there isn't much consensus on these issues. To make this page better, I hope everyone can answer and discuss them. Thank you. SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 10:54, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:No "The ROC joined the United Nations early on, but at that time, they believed they were China." They were signatories to its creation. None of the others were ever admitted to the UN. Slatersteven (talk) 11:01, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you for pointing out ：) SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 11:05, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:"Now that Wikipedia treats Taiwan and the Republic of China during the Nationalist period as separate entries," Are you talking about the fact that we hzve a Republic of China page covering the post 1949 petiod? That is simply a historical era page like nany others. It does not mean that the ROC of that period and modern Taiwan are not the same state.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:43, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

::(I made a typo. I originally wanted to say "Mainland period.")SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 14:12, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

::Both are the same state, I agree. Do you think both are the same country? SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 18:11, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:We need to focus on what reliable sources say, which is a "self-governing island," not a country or a partially recognized state. 2600:1007:B051:74F0:0:14:928F:F201 (talk) 12:08, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:I hold that opinion. Political status of Taiwan is a separate article for a reason. The lede of this article is currently much too long. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:09, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

::Wikipedia can choose to avoid controversy, but getting involved in controversy is never a good solution, whether the lead is too long or not. SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 14:21, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:::But to avoid it we cannot take sides. Slatersteven (talk) 14:30, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

::::This seems to be why reliable sources prefer "self-governing island," something completely neutral but also entirely accurate, compared to "country," "partially recognized state," or "province," all of which indicate a particular point of view incompatible with the others. 64.136.251.2 (talk) 14:40, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::I don’t think “self-governing island” is neutral at all. It steers away from WP:CONSISTENT without achieving neutrality. As with any other country article, Taiwan as a country is not a controversial issue unless you hold the view that it should not be recognized as such. That view is extensively described in later sections and at Political status of Taiwan. This main article describes all aspects of the country (history, culture, economy, etc.), not just its political status, so the intro has a lot of ground to cover already. Butterdiplomat (talk) 15:13, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::My personal preference is to go with how reliable sources define it over trying to rationalize it all out. That often turns into an essay that easily veers into original research territory. Since the reliable sources don't call it a province of China or a country, but instead, call it a self-governing island, it would make sense for us to follow. Right now, we stand alone in calling Taiwan a country, and taking a position on a controversial issue isn't a position Wikipedia likes to be in. 64.136.244.162 (talk) 15:36, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::The claim is sourced to RS, right there in the lede. So it's clear even RS are divided on the issue. Slatersteven (talk) 15:49, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Given how old the references are, it seems to an outsider to be cherry-picked. It would be far more useful to look at how reliable sources over the past five years have described Taiwan, and it's difficult to find any that use the POV language of "Province of China" or "Country," they seem to almost exclusively use the NPOV "self-governing island." 192.146.243.20 (talk) 16:56, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::It's really easy to find such sources. Simply change your search filter to sources from the past year. CMD (talk) 17:47, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Many RS call it this way, and many RS call it that way. Some RS in Note 27 say it is a "state," but our decision is to use "country." This depends more on our decision. SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 17:55, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::{{tq|Taiwan as a country is not a controversial issue unless you hold the view that it should not be recognized as such. }} - The problem is that quite a lot of people, countries, and organizations don't think this way. This is also why strange names like "Chinese Taipei" come into existence. SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 17:51, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Based on recent discussions, it seems that replacing with "island" is not feasible due to the existence of WP:TWRFC, and I personally lean towards supplementing with explanations based on "country." SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 18:08, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::I suggest this way of writing, which I think it is relatively objective ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taiwan#c-SoAnnoyedToName-20250622130800-SoAnnoyedToName-20250621184800 p.s.]){{textdiff|Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a country in East Asia.|Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a country in East Asia with partial diplomatic recognition.}}

::::::::*On the one hand, Taiwan truly meets all the conditions to become a country.

::::::::*On the other hand, many countries or organizations don't say so because they don't recongize it or don't think that way.

::::::::Although the lead is too long, adding four words should not be too excessive, right?

::::::::Therefore, returning to my original question, does this violate RFC? SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 18:48, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::As has been covered many many times, this is a misleading framing due to the way the recognition doesn't really align with the way Taiwan is generally considered a country. CMD (talk) 19:02, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Your statement seems to have not reached a consensus, even though you have been covered many many times. {{quote|In actual practice, recognition or non-recognition by other states plays an important role in determining the status of a country. Unrecognized states often have difficulty engaging in diplomatic relations with other sovereign states.{{Cite journal |last=Visoka |first=Gëzim |date=2022 |title=Statehood and recognition in world politics: Towards a critical research agenda |journal=Cooperation and Conflict |volume=57 |issue=2 |pages=133–151 |doi=10.1177/00108367211007876 |doi-access=free}}{{Cite journal |last=Hoch |first=Tomáš |date=2018 |title=Legitimization of Statehood and its Impact on Foreign Policy in De Facto States: A Case Study of Abkhazia |journal=Iran & the Caucasus |publisher=Brill |volume=22 |issue=4 |pages=382–407 |doi=10.1163/1573384X-20180406 |jstor=26626701}}|source=Sovereign state}}

::::::::::There were also many objections in the previous discussion SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 19:27, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::You seem to be new to Wikipedia and unfamiliar with various principles and policies. For example, consensus in the Wikipedia sense does not mean unanimous agreement (WP:CONACHIEVE). Regards, HaeB (talk) 22:10, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::How do you think consensus has been reached? SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 06:30, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::You clearly know that consensus has been reached... You're literally trying to overturn it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 06:37, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::Why is it that when everyone is discussing the issue itself, someone is discussing others' behavior? SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 11:29, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::If Taiwan were generally considered to be a country, it would be easy to find reliable sources describing it as such, but as the talkpage and article references show, it's actually excruciatingly difficult, and we end up making compromises and accept outdated sources because they support our POV. Wikipedia is actually supposed to be NPOV, but we don't like following policy when it comes to Taiwan. 185.104.139.75 (talk) 00:18, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::None of that appears to be true... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 06:37, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::It's actually easy to find RS calling Taiwan a country. Here are some from a single search on Wikipedia Library, which took me about ten minutes including checking that all of these refer to the country as a country: [https://eds.p.ebscohost.com/eds/detail/detail?vid=3&sid=74a0614e-2ca8-4d82-9b08-77c3749680df%40redis&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWRzLWxpdmUmc2NvcGU9c2l0ZQ%3d%3d#AN=EJ1469246&db=eric], [https://eds.p.ebscohost.com/eds/detail/detail?vid=4&sid=74a0614e-2ca8-4d82-9b08-77c3749680df%40redis&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWRzLWxpdmUmc2NvcGU9c2l0ZQ%3d%3d#AN=EJ1463260&db=eric], [https://eds.p.ebscohost.com/eds/detail/detail?vid=5&sid=74a0614e-2ca8-4d82-9b08-77c3749680df%40redis&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWRzLWxpdmUmc2NvcGU9c2l0ZQ%3d%3d#AN=EJ1425466&db=eric], [https://eds.p.ebscohost.com/eds/detail/detail?vid=6&sid=74a0614e-2ca8-4d82-9b08-77c3749680df%40redis&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWRzLWxpdmUmc2NvcGU9c2l0ZQ%3d%3d#AN=169726999&db=ccm], [https://eds.p.ebscohost.com/eds/detail/detail?vid=7&sid=74a0614e-2ca8-4d82-9b08-77c3749680df%40redis&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWRzLWxpdmUmc2NvcGU9c2l0ZQ%3d%3d#AN=183177910&db=ccm], [https://eds.p.ebscohost.com/eds/detail/detail?vid=9&sid=74a0614e-2ca8-4d82-9b08-77c3749680df%40redis&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWRzLWxpdmUmc2NvcGU9c2l0ZQ%3d%3d#AN=183596838&db=sih], [https://eds.p.ebscohost.com/eds/detail/detail?vid=10&sid=74a0614e-2ca8-4d82-9b08-77c3749680df%40redis&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWRzLWxpdmUmc2NvcGU9c2l0ZQ%3d%3d#AN=183177910&db=ccm], [https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ1417437].

:::::::::::To talk turkey, though: the only reason anyone says Taiwan isn't a country is because of China. Limited diplomatic recognition? Pressuring people to call it a province? That's Chinese politics. Wikipedia has a neutral point of view, not one allied to particular governments and not one that privileges fringe theories. CohenTheBohemian (talk) 06:51, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::Taiwan is unquestionably a country, to any native English speaker. Chinese doesn’t have a word that translates well for “country”. “Country” is extremely neutral, it doesn’t speak to legalities, or politics, or recognition. A country does not require a population. SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:02, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::Agreed. The other useful thing about "country" is that it is not only neutral, but has many meanings, making it useful for complex cases like this. CohenTheBohemian (talk) 12:33, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::Country can be used in a broad or narrow sense. In a broad sense, when referring to a specific polity, the term "country" may refer to a sovereign state, state with limited recognition, constituent country, or dependent territory.(Country) In a narrow sense, it is often synonymous with a sovereign state (Country (disambiguation), Wiktionary:country#Usage_notes.

::::::::::::::More importantly, of the four underlined categories, only the first seems to be described as a country in the Wikipedia lead, without any additional description of international recognition. SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 13:01, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::Which tells me that we shouldn't be putting recognition statistics in the leads of articles in the first place. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:32, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 07:17, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::{{tq|The only reason anyone says Taiwan isn't a country is because of China}} - Have you read the history of Taiwan? No outsiders have invaded the island of Taiwan since 1945. The Taiwan you are talking about is officially called the Republic of China, which was "China" at the time. It is also because of the Chinese Civil War that we are discussing this issue now, otherwise Taiwan is undoubtedly ROC territory, and ROC is China. China and Taiwan are two completely different countries only from the perspective of today's era.

::::::::::::Whether one believes that Taiwan became a country in 1949 or that it was when the Taiwanese began to seek independence, the birth of this country is already related to China, otherwise it would not have been born at all.

::::::::::::Your words sound as if they have nothing to do with the American independence and the Kingdom of Great Britain. (Of course, it's not entirely the same.) SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 11:23, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::Look at the category at the bottom of this page, it says "China-related articles". Anyone who thinks that China belongs to "a small group of outsiders" in these matters, I suggest you re-study Taiwan history. (Unless Taiwan officially declares complete independence and establishes the Republic of Taiwan) SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 11:36, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::@SoAnnoyedToName, in both of your last two replies to me ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Taiwan&diff=prev&oldid=1296804735] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Taiwan&diff=prev&oldid=1296805587]) you quoted me incorrectly. In the first, you quoted my statement "the only reason anyone says Taiwan isn't a country is because of China" ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Taiwan&diff=prev&oldid=1296780258]) as "Taiwan isn't a country is because of China", and replied to that statement instead of what I had said.

:::::::::::::Quoting out of context is specifically listed as uncivil behavior at WP:IUC (point 2.e). In the second, you used quotation marks around the phrase "a small group of outsiders", which gives the impression that you are quoting my words, which you were not. Both of these comments, therefore, misrepresent my replies, which is specifically listed as unacceptable behavior at WP:TPNO.

:::::::::::::As a new editor, you may not know that this behavior can lead to being banned or blocked. I advise you to follow the links and to be more careful when quoting next time. Please let me know if you think I can help you in the future. CohenTheBohemian (talk) 12:31, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::For the first thing, I'm sorry, I read it wrong. (But it doesn't seem to have changed much.) For the second thing, there is more than one use of quotation marks, and I never said that the term was said by you. SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 12:49, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::If it is described as a de facto country, it indeed gives the impression of not being a de jure country, but saying a country with partial diplomatic recognition, it is indeed the case after 1971. This article focuses on the Taiwan Island proper, the glorious moments of the ROC's diplomacy can be seen in Republic of China (1912–1949). SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 07:12, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taiwan#c-SoAnnoyedToName-20250621184800-SoAnnoyedToName-20250621180800 ^]p.s. Borrowed from Kosovo. SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 13:08, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:Can we say that?

:{{textdiff|Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a country in East Asia. |Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a country^(Disputed. See Political status of Taiwan .) in East Asia. }} SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 11:46, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::That link is already in the lead. CMD (talk) 12:29, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taiwan#c-SoAnnoyedToName-20250622130100-CohenTheBohemian-20250622123300 This reply may also apply here.] SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 13:03, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Not seeing how. It's not correct either. CMD (talk) 13:25, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I think it is abundantly clear from the discussion that there is a misunderstanding of NPOV, which actually guides us to avoid giving undue weight to fringe, pseudoscientific, or otherwise problematic positions. In this instance, we have explained time and again the criteria and definitions of country, and why it is appropriate to use that term here. We have also included the political aim of suppressing this factual status (giving it some weight), and extensively covered it in a separate article. A country article like this one has a lot of ground to cover, and we need not complicate and lengthen a lead to placate the political desires of world governments. The counterpoints made are getting close to WP:DONTLIKEIT. Butterdiplomat (talk) 15:08, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Can anyone answer my [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taiwan#c-SoAnnoyedToName-20250621105400-Questions_about_some_previous_discussions original question]? So far, no one has directly answered my original question. I can feel that people here have completely different attitudes towards Taiwan and Kosovo. I hope someone can answer to dispel my doubts.SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 18:39, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:Those questions were answered several times, either in WP:TWRFC (which you referenced and presumably reviewed) or in our responses. The RfC and the resulting disclaimer at the top of this talk page state clearly that Taiwan should be described as a country; nothing more, nothing less. With regard to the comparisons with other states, the separate histories, particularly with the ROC being a founding member of the UN, its retreat to the island of Taiwan, and the whole of Taiwanese history existing in parallel with the PRC (now commonly conflated with China), make it different from Kosovo or other “breakaway” states. There has been no declaration of independence needing recognition. Others may look at it differently, but ultimately the existing consensus is to describe Taiwan simply as a country, which was established in WP:TWRFC and in numerous discussions since then. Butterdiplomat (talk) 21:03, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::You didn't address the key points of my question; you just kept restating the views of WP:TWRFC and those opposed to the modification (...like Chinese diplomats do....).

::If you really believe that "country" is a neutral term referring to a geographical area, then China before 1949, with Taiwan included, was much larger than the Taiwan of today, which clearly is not the same "geographical area." Are the repeated claims you make not based on the idea of "the same government"? Shouldn't this be considered the same "state"? SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 07:04, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Republic of China (1912–1949), are you sugesting a merge? Slatersteven (talk) 08:34, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::::No SoAnnoyedToName (talk) 10:18, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::As said above, this is why this is such a complex issue, it is both and not the same state. Hence why we have two articles. Slatersteven (talk) 12:32, 23 June 2025 (UTC)