Talk:Thelema

There seems to be an almost complete lack of information about the current status of the religion. How many practitioners are they? How are they distributed across the world? Is it a growing, stable or shrinking religion?

What about using the symbol of Aleister Crowley's rendition of the unicursal hexagram in the lead section just like the articles of other religions such as Theosophy, Satanism, and more? And use the image of Crowley in somewhere else in the article (obviously according to context). User:AimanAbir18plus (talk) 17:23, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:{{ping|AimanAbir18plus}} This image has been on the article for years. It shows Crowley, the founder of the religion, together with the most holy objects of the religion, the Stele of Revealing and The Book of the Law, and you have given no policy or guideline based reason justifying the change. Generally, per WP:EDITCON, we assume there is consensus for the current image and you would have to give a good policy or guideline-based argument for the change. Neither your own personal preferences or how it is done on other articles are valid arguments for making changes. Skyerise (talk) 17:31, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

::This is not my personal preference. It is a proposal to use the symbol based on what most of the editors say. It depends on the majority of the editors' opinion. But, articles of other religions such as Theosophy, Satanism, and more use symbol in the lead. AimanAbir18plus (talk) 17:42, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:::{{ping|AimanAbir18plus}} Yes, it is your personal preference. The creators and maintainers of articles have broad editorial discretion on the article content and images. They are not required to take any other articles' styles into account — those article's editors also have broad editorial discretion. There is no guideline that dictates any kind of consistency between articles. The only valid arguments for overriding the choices of the original creators and maintainers of the article is that what they have done violates one or another policy or guideline. If you don't explain how you think the current choice violates a guideline (citing the guideline), there is little chance that you will gain a consensus to change the image. Skyerise (talk) 01:31, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

::::Even if it was my personal preference, I just put it for discussion. Just leave it on the talk page. AimanAbir18plus (talk) 09:23, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

:::::Of course; but just be aware that if no other editors respond, it means no other editors support the change. Skyerise (talk) 13:00, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

The source used for the majority of the New Testament sub-section is a WP:FRINGE citation that has been incomplete for four years without improvement. @Randy Kryn I am removing material that is not appropriately sourced. The last several edit summaries that addressed the same source made that clear - I didn't think I needed to be so explicit with every single edit summary. Would you please kindly self-revert? This is a bad source. Simonm223 (talk) 14:05, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:Hello {{u|Simonm223}}. [https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2307/nasb20/mgnt/0-1/ The first source which lists the Bible count is good], and no reason to remove that sentence. The rest is a book I don't have a copy of, why would you say it's a fringe book for this religious article? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:39, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::The first source, which lists the Bible, is a primary source that only really indicates that the word is used in the Bible. This has WP:SYNTH problems for the topic of the article which, as we are not Wiktionary, is about Thelema as a specific concept divorced from the mere presence of the word in other contexts. Basically, without the bad source, the good source is meaningless. Simonm223 (talk) 15:46, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:::The word as it related to this topic is being defined with the first source, and shows the words meaning in a religious context. Why is the book a bad source? I'm not aware of the reach of the fringe guidelines as applied to religions. This isn't science or related to historical topics, but an article about a religion. Where is that line drawn, and why would it reach into religious beliefs and practices rather than just science, theories, and history etc.? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:50, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Basically the risk of fringe comes from the very specific tendency of new religious movements to try and associate themselves with ancient traditions. As such books that make claims of connection between the NRM and antiquity, when drafted by adherents of the faith, are at great risk of being pseudohistorical documents. And pseudohistory is very much within the remit of WP:FRINGE. Simonm223 (talk) 14:53, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::The language of the now brief section on the New Testament seems accurate as to the reasoning and explanation of the naming of this religion. Founded in 1904, the "new religious movement" is far past the century mark of enduring as a functional and defined belief and definition system. Maybe some aspects would fit your definition of fringe but please point those out, thanks. Medical or scientific assertions would likely cross that line, and I haven't read the article in enough depth to find those. I should say again, I am not a member of this religion and have never attended one of its meetings, but have "faith" in Wikipedia to allow articles such as this to cover it and others of its class as correctly as possible. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:09, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

I had removed the words "guided by love" in the lede, as well as made a couple of other edits to the way that True Will is handled in this article. It was reverted and I'm not sure why, so I'm making this talk page article to discuss.

The issue with saying "guided by love" is that it's patently incorrect. The material in the article, as well as the source material itself and the secondary sources, make it clear that in Thelema, "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" and "love is the law, love under will." Or in other words, "Will" is the active force here, and "Love" is "under" will. So the term "guided by love" is precisely incorrect. Love is guided by will.

As for the other edits, describing "True Will" as a "calling" in life is improper and leaves the reader with the impression that this is some kind of Tony Robbins-style self-help program. Liber AL talks about will being "unassuaged by purpose, delivered from the lust of result" and so making it sound like Thelema is all about finding the right college major or whatever isn't correct at all. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧 12:40, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:Hello {{u|May His Shadow Fall Upon You}}. I'd missed your above post. Yes, the term "guided by love" as a standalone doesn't accurately cover the exact quote, so I've added the full "love is the law, love under will" quote. And the True Will descriptor is accurate in terms of what, I think, is the religious guidance of Thelema (note, I'm not a member of this religion nor have attended any of its meetings) and akin to other religions. I think it means something more than "finding the right college major". Wondering if Masonic terminology has anything akin to Thelema's "True Will"? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:50, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::The concept of True Will isn't Masonic. Describing "True Will" as a "calling" or "purpose" is not only incorrect, it's also contradicting the sentence that immediately comes before it in the article. The article correctly identifies that True Will is "distinguished from the ordinary wants and desires of the ego." Finding someone's calling in life is absolutely an ordinary want and desire that everyone goes through. Crowley himself wrote in Liber Reguli that "The True Will has no goal; its nature being To Go", so describing this as finding your calling in life is totally unsupported. It is also said in Liber AL that "pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect." In short, it's just a piece of uncited editorialization that's not supported by anything. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧 12:29, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Hello {{u|May His Shadow Fall Upon You}}. Didn't say it was Masonic, was asking if Masons have a similar concept. Within this religion the "calling" or "purpose" wording seems correct, as far as I know, and that's what we are editing here, the main article about a recognized religion. True Will is a central doctrine of Thelema, and using the present wording seems to define it well and fully while removing it would lessen an accurate descriptor. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:10, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::::In my own work (I know, OR, but bear with me for a moment) I've often associated Crowley's perspective on True Will as being most closely associated with the Nietzschean concept of Amor Fati. This is based on the statements from Liber AL and the proximity of that language to Georges Bataille's interpretation of Amor Fati and its relationship to Project and Inner Experiences.

::::I'm certainly not the only one to see the influence of Nietzsche on Crowley though. See, for example:

::::* The Cardinal Importance of Names: Aleister Crowley and the Creation of a Tarot for the New Aeon. By: Fletcher, Matthew, Aries, 15679896, 2021, Vol. 21, Issue 1

::::* Deus est Homo: The Concept of God in the Magical Writings of the Great Beast 666 (Aleister Crowley). By: Bogdan, Henrik, Aries, 15679896, 2021, Vol. 21, Issue 1

::::*The Heart of Thelema: Morality, Amorality, and Immorality in Aleister Crowley's Thelemic Cult. By: Morgan, Mogg, Pomegranate. Dec2011, Vol. 13 Issue 2, p163-183. 21p.

::::* and, especially, "Do What Thou Wilt": The History of a Precept By: Morgan, Mogg, Pomegranate. Dec2011, Vol. 13 Issue 2, p163-183. 21p.

::::As such I do concur with May His Shadow Fall Upon You that the more self-help elements of "Do what thou wilt" are a weak fit for Crowley's idea. Simonm223 (talk) 13:30, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Nietzsche is definitely an influence here. He's actually one of the EGC Saints honored in Crowley's Liber XV, Gnostic Mass. The concept of True Will is probably more directly attributable to Gnosticism in general, though. To some degree, this is the meaning of "the Khabs is in the Khu, not the Khu in the Khabs" in Liber AL. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧 17:30, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::Keep in mind that I'm approaching this from the perspective of a philosopher and a literary critic rather than a practitioner or adherent. So I'm more interested in the ontological angle of Thelema than the mystical ones. Simonm223 (talk) 17:32, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have though. As an FYI, and certainly NOT as some claim to authority, I was previously the master of a Masonic Lodge and I hold a leadership position in an Ordo Templi Orientis lodge so I'm fairly knowledgeable on both Masonic and Thelemic concepts.

::::I agree that True Will is a central aspect of Thelema, and possibly THE central aspect; my only issue is describing it as one's calling or purpose in life. This phraseology doesn't come from Crowley or from any published source, it's just some editor's unsourced opinion. (Which is an incorrect opinion too - and it contradicts other parts of the article.) It may have lasted a long time in the article but I don't think that's a reason to keep it - it just means that it should have been removed sooner. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧 17:27, 20 May 2025 (UTC)