Talk:Toxic masculinity

Link to this page Terry Kupers? Joel S Bateman (talk) 10:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

{{edit extended-protected|Toxic masculinity|answered=yes}}

{{fake heading | Criticism }}

Toxic masculinity has received criticism as a concept. Some conservatives, as well as many in the alt-right, see toxic masculinity as an incoherent concept or believe that there is no such thing as toxic masculinity.{{cite journal |last1=Sculos |first1=Bryant W. |title=Who’s Afraid of ‘Toxic Masculinity’? |journal=Class, Race and Corporate Power |date=2017 |volume=5 |issue=3 |url=http://digitalcommons.fiu.edu/classracecorporatepower/vol5/iss3/6 |access-date=20 January 2021}}{{rp|2}} In January 2019, conservative political commentators criticized the new American Psychological Association guidelines for warning about harms associated with "traditional masculinity ideology", arguing that it constitutes an attack on masculinity.{{cite news |last1=Dastagir |first1=Alia E. |title=Psychologists call 'traditional masculinity' harmful, face uproar from conservatives |url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/10/american-psychological-association-traditional-masculinity-harmful/2538520002/ |access-date=20 January 2021 |publisher=USA Today |date=10 January 2019}} David French of the National Review criticized the APA guidelines on "traditional masculinity ideology" for including "very common, inherent male characteristics" including "anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure, risk, and violence." French argued that these traits are not "inherently wrong or harmful," and that a proper understanding of traditional masculinity "rejects harmful extremes."{{cite web |last1=French |first1=David |title=The APA Can’t Spin Its Way Out of Its Attack on ‘Traditional Masculinity’ |url=https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/01/traditional-masculinity-backlash-against-new-apa-guidelines/ |publisher=National Review |access-date=20 January 2021 |date=9 January 2019}} APA chief of professional practice Jared Skillings responded to conservative criticism, stating that the report's discussion of traditional masculinity is about "negative traits such as violence or over-competitiveness or being unwilling to admit weakness" and noting that the report also discusses positive traits traditionally associated with masculinity such as "courage, leadership, protectiveness". Masculine traits like strength, courage, independence, leadership, assertiveness; and applying masculinity positively, can also help men manage emotions, build relationships, better communicate problems, improve life balance, and alleviate mental health concerns.https://dorsetmind.uk/mens-masculinity-could-be-an-advantage-in-managing-mental-health/ Almadão (talk) 15:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

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:File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Tlx|Edit extended-protected}} template.

:David French's statements here are WP:UNDUE without more authoritative sourcing than the National Review, which is a primary source for French's opinion. We generally stick to peer-reviewed scholarship and mainstream news sources, not partisan outlets like NR. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I feel there is a strategic and undue placement of the mention of "Alt-Right" criticism at the top of the criticism section to try and prevent questioning of the concept of Toxic Masculinity.

A layman reading the section would immediately think "Oh, the people who disagree with this are associated with, or actual Nazis, I better not question it also or I am aligned with them" 2A0E:CB01:72:B200:B963:B256:DDF1:42DF (talk) 13:21, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:If published, reliable sources associate criticism of toxic masculinity with nazis and the alt-right, then so do we. That's what due weight entails on Wikipedia. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 14:26, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

::DUE WEIGHT specifically says that all significant viewpoints should be included "in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources". Stonkaments (talk) 06:07, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

:::Fortunately, that is already the case here. Brusquedandelion (talk) 07:16, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

::Published, reliable sources suggest Nazis don’t like democracy, does that mean it should be at the top of the criticism of democracy article?

::I’m not complaining about the inclusion of Nazis criticising it, just about where it I see placed in the criticism section. 2A0E:CB01:72:B200:3523:47E6:D034:5E35 (talk) 06:11, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

:::If that's what sources say about criticism of democracy, then yes. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 07:16, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

::::Even if there are other well known examples of different objections frequently mentioned in sources?

::::Placing a mention of Nazis at the top in that instance would be the definition of undue weight. 2A0E:CB01:72:B200:FD36:5C25:247B:3436 (talk) 14:36, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::This armchair philosophizing is fun, but ultimately pointless unless there are relevant sources that frame the issue differently. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 15:39, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

::::::How is attempting to follow Wikipedia guidelines and attempting to make sure a page is formatted correctly "armchair philosophising"?

::::::For disclosure, I am the previous IP and am NOT attempting to sockpuppet. 2A0E:CB01:72:B200:42D:5B49:DEFF:E361 (talk) 13:25, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::::You haven't followed Wikipedia guidelines. Either present your sources or this discussion is pointless. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 15:43, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

https://psyche.co/ideas/talk-of-toxic-masculinity-puts-the-blame-in-all-the-wrong-places Nesssz (talk) 13:22, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

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{{edit extended-protected|Toxic masculinity|answered=yes}}

{{fake heading|level=2|Criticism}}

{{fake heading|level=3|Professional and Clinical Concerns}}

The concept of toxic masculinity has faced significant criticism from mental health professionals regarding its therapeutic impact. The British Psychological Society criticized the American Psychological Association's 2018 guidelines, arguing that the toxic masculinity framework may "damage the therapeutic alliance, discourage men from seeking therapy, and contribute to the misdiagnosis of trauma".{{cite web |title=The APA has changed its view of masculinity |url=https://www.centreformalepsychology.com/male-psychology-magazine-listings/the-apa-have-changed-their-view-of-masculinity |website=Centre for Male Psychology |date=November 8, 2022 |access-date=June 4, 2025}} Research indicates that therapeutic approaches emphasizing toxic masculinity can hinder men's willingness to engage in self-reflection and prevent the formation of strong therapeutic relationships.{{cite web |last1=Manocha |first1=Surbhi |title=The Silent Struggle: How Toxic Masculinity Takes a Toll on Men's Mental Health |url=https://surbhimanocha.com/the-silent-struggle-how-toxic-masculinity-takes-a-toll-on-mens-mental-health/ |access-date=June 4, 2025}}

Studies suggest that negative framing of masculinity may worsen mental health outcomes for men. Research found that around 85% of respondents consider the term "toxic masculinity" insulting and potentially harmful to boys, with evidence indicating it may lead to "worse mental well-being and the possibility to act out impulsively and uncontrollably".{{cite web |title=Boys and the Burden of Labels |url=https://unherd.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/ToxicMasculinity_FamilyEducationTrustReport.pdf |publisher=Family Education Trust |date=September 20, 2024 |access-date=June 4, 2025}}

{{fake heading|level=3|Academic and Methodological Critiques}}

Some feminists have argued that toxic masculinity is an essentialist concept that ignores the role of choice and context.{{rp|2}} Academic critics note the concept suffers from definitional ambiguity that makes empirical study difficult, as it conflates observable behaviors with evaluative judgments.{{cite web |last1=Manocha |first1=Surbhi |title=The Silent Struggle: How Toxic Masculinity Takes a Toll on Men's Mental Health |url=https://surbhimanocha.com/the-silent-struggle-how-toxic-masculinity-takes-a-toll-on-mens-mental-health/ |access-date=June 4, 2025}}

Critics argue the framework risks pathologizing normal masculine behaviors, with research showing that "greater acceptance of traditional masculinity has been found to be significantly associated with better self-esteem and mental well-being".{{cite web |title=Boys and the Burden of Labels |url=https://unherd.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/ToxicMasculinity_FamilyEducationTrustReport.pdf |publisher=Family Education Trust |date=September 20, 2024 |access-date=June 4, 2025}} Some scholars contend that the concept conflates "normal gendered expression with pathology," where routine masculine traits like competitiveness or protectiveness become problematized.{{cite web |title=Boys and the Burden of Labels |url=https://unherd.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/ToxicMasculinity_FamilyEducationTrustReport.pdf |publisher=Family Education Trust |date=September 20, 2024 |access-date=June 4, 2025}}

{{fake heading|level=3|Structural vs. Individual Focus Concerns}}

Critics argue that toxic masculinity discourse focuses excessively on individual pathology rather than structural factors. The All-Party Parliamentary Group on Issues Affecting Men and Boys concluded that while progressive ideologies typically seek structural causes for problems, "men as a category appear to be exempt: male problems are a result of their own failings".{{cite web |title=Boys and the Burden of Labels |url=https://unherd.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/ToxicMasculinity_FamilyEducationTrustReport.pdf |publisher=Family Education Trust |date=September 20, 2024 |access-date=June 4, 2025}} This approach is criticized for overlooking evidence about structural causes of male underachievement, such as developmental differences between boys and girls.

Some scholars note a classist element within toxic masculinity discourse, where the label tends to be applied to marginalized men in ways that essentialize them as aggressive and criminal, "discursively packaged in a way" that presents itself as concern while potentially reinforcing stereotypes.{{cite web |title=Boys and the Burden of Labels |url=https://unherd.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/ToxicMasculinity_FamilyEducationTrustReport.pdf |publisher=Family Education Trust |date=September 20, 2024 |access-date=June 4, 2025}}

{{fake heading|level=3|Conservative and Political Criticism}}

Some conservatives, as well as many in the alt-right, see toxic masculinity as an incoherent concept or believe that there is no such thing as toxic masculinity.{{rp|2}} In January 2019, conservative political commentators criticized the new American Psychological Association guidelines for warning about harms associated with "traditional masculinity ideology", arguing that it constitutes an attack on masculinity.{{cite news |last1=Dastagir |first1=Alia E. |title=Psychologists call 'traditional masculinity' harmful, face uproar from conservatives |url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/10/american-psychological-association-traditional-masculinity-harmful/2538520002/ |access-date=January 20, 2021 |newspaper=USA Today |date=January 10, 2019 |archive-date=January 19, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210119095822/https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/10/american-psychological-association-traditional-masculinity-harmful/2538520002/ |url-status=live }} APA chief of professional practice Jared Skillings responded to conservative criticism, stating that the report's discussion of traditional masculinity is about "negative traits such as violence or over-competitiveness or being unwilling to admit weakness" and noting that the report also discusses positive traits traditionally associated with masculinity such as "courage, leadership, protectiveness".

{{fake heading|level=3|Alternative Framework Proposals}}

In response to concerns about toxic masculinity discourse, researchers have developed alternative approaches. The "healthy masculinities" movement promotes positive male role models rather than pathologizing masculine traits, focusing on "creative ways to exercise masculinity in noble ways".{{cite web |title=Engaging Youth to Promote Healthy Masculinities and End Gender |url=https://www.gbvlearningnetwork.ca/our-work/backgrounders/healthy-masculinities/Healthy-Masculinities-Backgrounder.pdf |publisher=GBV Learning Network |access-date=June 4, 2025}} The Positive masculinity framework proposes that boys and young men develop authentic, connected, and motivated approaches to masculinity.{{cite web |title=The Foundation for Positive Masculinity |url=https://positivemasculinity.org.au/resources/positive-masculinity/ |date=November 1, 2023 |access-date=June 4, 2025}}

Some advocates argue for focusing on "specific harmful behaviors (e.g., violence, misogyny) regardless of gender" rather than gendering toxicity itself, suggesting this approach addresses harmful actions without essentializing gender characteristics.{{cite web |title=5 Ways Every Man Can Challenge the Toxic Culture of Masculinity |url=https://www.catalyst.org/insights/2020/challenge-toxic-masculinity |publisher=Catalyst |date=February 5, 2020 |access-date=June 4, 2025}} Averykins (talk) 22:25, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

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: {{not done for now}}. This definitely needs workshopping and a heavy trim. Many of the sources are unreliable (unherd) or non-independent (the alternative framework sources). Some parts are misleading. For example, the British Psychological Association did not criticize the APA's guidelines, as the cited source (itself unreliable) makes clear. Of the sources that are not already used in the article's criticism section, which do you think are the most relevant and reliable? There's probably room for moderate expansion of the section. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:40, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

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