Talk:Tunganistan#Western exonym

@Yue "Western exonym" is a very strong claim for a political topic like this, especially for lead section. Lesser claims like "name" and "historical name" are fine.

Could you provide another source other than Andrew D. W. Forbes? Forbes doesn't even have a Wikipedia page, while he's making a claim on someone else who is more notable with a Wikipedia page.

A more NPOV way of state this would be:

• Use "historical name" instead of "Western exonym" in the lead
• say 'Australian [insert occupation] Andrew Forbes claim "Tunganistan" was coined by the Austrian Mongolist Walther Heissig.'

--Voidvector (talk) 02:59, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

:{{Reply|Voidvector}} I will implement your suggestion and then leave it as is until I add additional sources. Yue🌙 03:02, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

:{{Ping|Voidvector}} Additional sources:

:* [https://books.google.ca/books?id=IAs9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA128&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Heissig&f=false Andrew Forbes cites (in the passage I cited from Forbes' book) a map by Heissig and notes that two of Heissig's contemporaries used the name "Tungania".]

:* [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/The_Rise_of_Nationalism_in_Eastern_Turke/qKAMAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22heissig%22+%22Tunganistan%22&dq=%22heissig%22+%22Tunganistan%22&printsec=frontcover Forbes' contemporary Laura J. Newby repeats the same source and claim that it is a Western exonym but not that Heissig coined it. Quote: "W. Heissig{{nbsp}}... uses the term 'Tunganistan' to describe the Tungan stronghold, but it is a purely Western appellation."]

:* Forbes and Newby are qualified scholars:

:**[https://books.google.ca/books/about/Travellers_Sri_Lanka.html?id=faEYAAAACAAJ&source=kp_author_description&redir_esc=y (About author) "Andrew Forbes graduated in Chinese Studies at the University of Leeds before completing an MA in Islamic Studies and a PhD in Central Asian History. He is also a Senior Associate Member of St Antony's College, Oxford. He has been writing about Asian Affairs for more than 25 years, first as Lecturer in Islamic Studies at the University of Aberdeen, then as Editor of CPA Media."]

:**[https://academic.oup.com/california-scholarship-online/book/14992/chapter-abstract/169363447?redirectedFrom=fulltext "Laura J. Newby (Oxford University, Institute for Chinese Studies)"]

:*Their claim that "Tunganistan" is an exonym (if not specifically "Western") is repeated and cited by:

:**Shirin Akiner, a scholar of Central Asia, wrote: [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Cultural_Change_Continuity_In_Central_As/JuDWAQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Tunganistan%22&pg=PT296&printsec=frontcover "... aptly described, at least from a Turkic-speaking Muslim standpoint, as 'Tunganistan' ..."]

:**S. Frederick Starr, a scholar of Eurasian studies, wrote that the regime was [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Xinjiang/XuvqBgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Tunganistan%22&pg=PA79&printsec=frontcover "dubbed 'Tunganistan' by outsiders."]

:**[https://books.google.ca/books/about/Prospects_for_Democracy_in_Central_Asia.html?id=THGKAAAAMAAJ&source=kp_author_description&redir_esc=y Birgit N. Schlyter (see about author)] et al., scholars of Central Asian studies, state: [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Kashgar_Revisited_Uyghur_Studies_in_Memo/4X9yDQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Tunganistan%22&pg=PA193&printsec=frontcover "The territories under his rule were called "Tunganistan" by some Western writers, although no formal government was ever set up."]

:Perhaps the claim that "Tunganistan" was coined by Heissig needs an additional layer of digging, but the scholarly consensus among experts on the topic is that it was and is an (Western?) exonym.

:It's also worth pointing out that the terms Tungan/ Tungani / Dungan are themselves Western exonyms for Hui Muslims, who use the endonyms {{lang|zh|回族，老回回，中原人}}.

:The [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tunganistan&oldid=1195403676 version of the article before my edits] completely contradicts the sources cited. The claims made by previous editors of an independent "Tunganistan" state are, like the name itself, an invention by outsiders. Even a cursory glance of the available literature would lead to this understanding. Yue🌙 04:22, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

:: {{Reply|Yue}} Great research, I think that is sufficient citations for the claim to be used in heading and short description. I did find [https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/encyclopaedia-of-islam-2/tunganistan-SIM_7629 Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition] myself claiming the same thing. Of course, we can't cite an encyclopedia. So the claim of exonym seems well accepted in academia. I would add most of those as cites with quotes so it is uncontroversial to future editors.

:: Arguing "Dungan" is exonym is even more complicated, because while it is exonym in the Dungan language, but a lot of Dungans now do not speak the Dungan language anymore (you can watch Youtube videos to see this), so they will be referring to themselves as "Dungan" in Russian. But that's a separate topic. --Voidvector (talk) 04:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

:::{{Reply|Voidvector}} Fair point about the Dungan people. Yue🌙 04:58, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

There should be a infobox like The Historical country infobox Kaduski (talk) 23:38, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:There is no applicable infobox because 'Tunganistan', as explained in this article and the discussion above this one, is merely an exonym (externally applied name) and was not a country, state, settlement, or anything similar. Yue🌙 23:42, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

::There is a history section so there must have been something going on there. As this article talks about the region under a Chinese warlord there maybe the infobox could refer to that? Kaduski (talk) 00:07, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

:::What kind of an infobox are you thinking of? I wrote the entire article from scratch a little bit over a year ago and none came to mind. Tunganistan is a name. At the time of the rewrite I thought of Template:Infobox Chinese, but even that's not applicable because Tunganistan was coined and used in Western languages (e.g. English and German), not in Chinese. Derivatives like {{lang|zh-hans|通干斯坦}} were transcribed from English after-the-fact and aren't used in Chinese literature (or Uyghur, or Hui, etc.). Not every article needs an infobox. Yue🌙 00:16, 8 March 2025 (UTC)