Talk:Tzachas#Requested move 15 May 2025

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Requested move

:The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved per request. - GTBacchus^(talk) 16:16, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

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Chaka Bey → {{no redirect|1=Tzachas}} – per WP:COMMONNAME

There is no historical source in Turkish language about "Tzachas", and the name «Çaka» («Çaka Bey») prevailed especially in Turkey, because Akdes Nimet Kurat used the name "Çaka" in his work "Çaka: Orta Zamanda İzmir ve Yakınındaki Adaların Türk Hakimi", İstanbul, 1936.... yüksek siyasî ve askerî görüş sahibi olarak büyük önem taşıyan bu bey'in adının gerçek söylenişi henüz tamamen kesinliğe kavuşmuş değildir. Bu hususta şimdiye kadar üç ihtimal ileri sürülmüştür: Çaka, Çağa, Çakan. AN Kurat'ın bunu «Çaka» kabûl ederek eserini de «Çaka Bey» diye adlandırması, özellikle memleketimizde Çaka şeklinin yaygınlaşmasına yol açmıştır denebilir., Tarih Dergisi, Cilt 20, İstanbul Üniversitesi Edebiyat Fakültesi, [http://books.google.com/books?id=MiAtAQAAIAAJ&q=%22g%C3%B6r%C3%BC%C5%9F+sahibi+olarak+b%C3%BCy%C3%BCk+%C3%B6nem+ta%C5%9F%C4%B1yan+bu+bey'in+ad%C4%B1n%C4%B1n+ger%C3%A7ek+s%C3%B6yleni%C5%9Fi+hen%C3%BCz+tamamen+kesinli%C4%9Fe+kavu%C5%9Fmu%C5%9F+de%C4%9Fildir%22&dq=%22g%C3%B6r%C3%BC%C5%9F+sahibi+olarak+b%C3%BCy%C3%BCk+%C3%B6nem+ta%C5%9F%C4%B1yan+bu+bey'in+ad%C4%B1n%C4%B1n+ger%C3%A7ek+s%C3%B6yleni%C5%9Fi+hen%C3%BCz+tamamen+kesinli%C4%9Fe+kavu%C5%9Fmu%C5%9F+de%C4%9Fildir%22&hl=en&ei=XbY0TqCDBM_mmAXn0bDwCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA p. 56.]

This situation is same as names of Achaemenid people.

If "Chaka Bey" were common name of this person, we could (maybe must) chose "Chaka Bey". But it is clear that the common name of this person is not "Chaka"/"Chaka Bey"/"Chaka Beg" but "Tzachas" in English historiography.

[http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=Tzachas+-Llc&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_min:Jan%201_2%201980,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%202011&num=10&lr=lang_en Tzachas -Llc] (1980-2011, minimum) 352
[http://www.google.com/search?q=Smyrna+Tzachas+-Llc&hl=en&lr=lang_en&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:Jan+1_2+1980,cd_max:Dec+31_2+2011,lr:lang_1en&tbm=bks&ei=W7E0TuKVJ6GHmQWZ4LHwCg&start=70&sa=N&biw=1259&bih=715 Smyrna Tzachas -Llc] (1980-2011, minimum) 54
[http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=%22Chaka+Bey%22+-Llc&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_min:Jan%201_2%201980,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%202011&num=10&lr=lang_en "Chaka Bey" -Llc] (1980-2011, minimum) 3
[http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=%22Chaka+Beg%22+-Llc&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_min:Jan%201_2%201980,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%202011&num=10&lr=lang_en "Chaka Beg" -Llc] (1980-2011, minimum) 2
[http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=%22Chakan+Bey%22+-Llc&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_min:Jan%201_2%201980,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%202011&num=10&lr=lang_en "Chakan Bey" -Llc] (1980-2011, minimum) 0
[http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=%22Chakan+Beg%22+-Llc&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_min:Jan%201_2%201980,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%202011&num=10&lr=lang_en "Chakan Beg" -Llc] (1980-2011, minimum) 2
[http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=%22Cakan+Bey%22+-Llc&num=10&lr=lang_en "Cakan Bey" -Llc] 1, in Turkish language
[http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=%22Cakan+Beg%22+-Llc&num=10&lr=lang_en "Cakan Beg" -Llc] 0
[http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=%22Caka+Beg%22+-Llc&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_min:Jan%201_2%201980,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%202011&num=10&lr=lang_en "Caka Beg" -Llc] (1980-2011, minimum) 7
[http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Caka+Bey%22+-Llc&hl=en&lr=lang_en&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:Jan+1_2+1980,cd_max:Dec+31_2+2011,lr:lang_1en&tbm=bks&ei=7rI0TtfLPKXjmAXwxdjwCg&start=70&sa=N&biw=1259&bih=754 "Caka Bey" -Llc] (1980-2011, minimum) 54, but 22 of 54 are English text.

-- Takabeg (talk) 03:01, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

= Sources =

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not a good decision. First, "Tzachas" is the Greek form of the name, and this is about a Turkish ruler, where the native form would be preferable. Second, the above results are questionable, because they included "bey/beg" as an integral part of the name, when it is merely a title: [http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=chaka+turkish+-llc&btnG= Chaka Turkish] brings 410 results, and [http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22caka%22+turkish+-llc&btnG= "caka" turkish], i.e. the Turkish spelling, brings a few dozen results as well (if some irrelevant results are discounted). Constantine ✍ 16:42, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

:Hmm. I'm sorry you only arrived after I'd moved the page. Before moving it any more, I'd like to get input from more editors, and be sure that we're getting the right title. I've left notes at [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history&diff=444471362&oldid=444408473 1][https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Turkey&diff=444471363&oldid=437679184 2][https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Greece&diff=444471359&oldid=442903118 3][https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle_Ages&diff=444471361&oldid=440253564 4] WikiProjects just now requesting input, so let's see what others have to say. -GTBacchus^(talk) 17:35, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

:: "Tzachas" was recorded only in historical documents written in Greek language. The Turkish forms of the name (Çaka, Çağa, Çakan ) were nothing but assumption, hypothesis etc. And at present, these "assumed" names (Chaka, Chagha, Chakan, Çaka, Çağa, Çakan ) are not common names of this person. Takabeg (talk) 02:03, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

:::Hmmm, that is a good point. I've checked my own sources, and indeed, Tzachas was recorded only in Greek histories. So I agree with the present state of affairs. Constantine ✍ 12:01, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Maybe too late for the comment, but anyway. The problem is with the pronunciation. There is no standard pronunciation rule for foreign names in English. How do you pronounce "Tzachas" ? I don't know any Turkic or Islamic name beginning with Tz. (Ç in Çaka is pronunced like ch in the word chalk.) So I don't agree with the above move. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:22, 19 August 2011 (UTC)