Talk:Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines#Requested move 21 May 2025

:The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. WP:SNOW oppose. While usage varies between the emdash and hyphen, we typically favor keeping the status quo unless it is egregiously incorrect. (closed by non-admin page mover) ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:39, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

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:Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines → {{no redirect|Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines}} – that's the proper title of this game used everywhere Nesciuse (talk) 09:54, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose, no evidence provided that it's used "everywhere" and it certainly isn't used everywhere from a quick Google search, but also, that's not how hyphens are used. It's likely used interchangeably because most people won't know how to make an en-dash when writing an article or don't even know the difference, so there are immediate Google results that alternatively use a hyphen or en-dash. Even the official VTMB 2 site uses them interchangeably in text and credits [https://www.paradoxinteractive.com/games/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines-2/news/bloodlines-2-is-back here]. But the short version is that a hyphen is for joining compound words, not a break in a title (unless the title contains, say, "Spider-Man"), that's what an en-dash is for. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 17:31, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::Steam and gog store pages using hyphen in the title and everywhere is good indication that hyphen is the intended symbol in the title. Just because there are few cases where en dash is used doesn't change a thing as its minority --Nesciuse (talk) 00:45, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

:::This does not address my points, your statement is theory and WP:OR. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:03, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

::::What points ? The title has hyphen in it. End of story. That's what the store pages use. That's how game is in steam library. That's the directory in which it's saved. Nothing more to prove. This page was randomly moved by someone in 2008 from using hyphen to en dash. Where did they prove anything ? --Nesciuse (talk) 18:41, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

: Oppose per MOS:EMDASH, which states "{{gt|In article titles, do not use a hyphen (-) as a substitute for an en dash, for example in eye–hand span (since eye does not modify hand). Nonetheless, to aid searching and linking, provide a redirect with hyphens replacing the en dash(es), as in eye-hand span.}}. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:06, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

::as a substitute for an en dash you missing this part or what. This is not substitute for en dash in this case. It's the literal name --Nesciuse (talk) 22:45, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:::It's not something to be aggressive about. You've yet to provide evidence of any official name outside of marketplaces, which doesn't dispute my statement above, plus you've ignored that the official website uses them interchangeably. As a further example, GOG uses a hyphen, then refers to the game as "Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines" in the description, adding a further grammatical change. They aren't perfect. The steam version of Werewolf: The Apocalypse — The Book of Hungry Names uses the em-dash, for instance. In fact, most of the games swap back and forth as seen [https://store.steampowered.com/franchise/world-of-darkness here], but adding an em-dash takes more effort than a hyphen, indicating it's the correct one. The fact is that outside of online editing platforms like Wikipedia that let you click a button to add an em-dash, most people won't know how to make an em-dash when typing and it's also hard to tell the difference since the only distinction is length. Hyphens are also better for website SEO and can cause technical issues, sometimes being separted into two dashes. Hyphens are not used in the manner that would be acceptable in the title of a piece of work outside of the scenario I outlined above. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 23:23, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Aggressive ? I only pointed out whatever that person quoted doesn't support his point in any way. What sort of evidence do you actually want ? And where was the evidence when the page was moved from hyphen to en dash in the first place ? Steam using hyphen is plenty reason to use hyphen. For bloodlines 2 Every single listed store on the official website uses hyphen, their facebook page uses hyphen, youtube trailers and descriptions use hyphen, every occurence on their website uses hyphen except like the single one you pointed out. --Nesciuse (talk) 01:40, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::I literally just linked you to the World of Darkness Steam page where the multitude of games swap between hyphen and em-dash, backing up my point. I've explained, plausibly, the situation, taking into account hyphens and em-dash usage. You are cherry picking examples that support your stance only. I feel any discussion between us will go nowhere at this point. I'm also not concerned about what happened to the article title 17 years ago. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 09:51, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::Cherry picking is what you are doing by pointing out 1 en dash among 30 hyphens lmao. literally irrelevant what other games use as this is about vtmb Nesciuse (talk) 11:15, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I believe you are misunderstanding the presentation there, this is why we have articles like Eye–hand span. Instead of Eye-hand span. Regardless, the same guideline states "{{gt|Two forms of dash are used on Wikipedia: en dash (–) and em dash (—).}}" Even if we played loose and fast on this, my own personal opinion would be nobody would confuse, misunderstand, or think this article as being about anything else based on something as generally naked to most readers eyes like a dash. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:44, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::::The rule is only saying "don't substitute en dash with hyphen". It doesn't say don't use hyphen. Spider-man will use hyphen, half-life will use hyphen and not en dash because it's not using the hyphen as substitute but that's the title. Eye–hand span is simply the correct use that's why en dash is used in the title. In this case vtmb uses hyphen in its title in 99% cases so it should reflected here too. It doesn't matter it's grammatically not proper or whatever it's the title. If they titled it blodlines instead of bloodlines we wouldn't be arguing whether to title it with grammatically correct bloodlines vs the actual title they used blodlines.

::::And what are you trying to imply by "Two forms of dash are used on Wikipedia: en dash (–) and em dash (—)." ? Hyphen is just not a dash. That sentence doesn't mean wikipedia should never use hyphens. --Nesciuse (talk) 13:27, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::That's different for Spider-man. For example, MOS:HYPHEN states that "indicate conjunction" while the mdash is used to suggest an abrupt stop speech. So for Spider-man it makes sense to use it as it shows the words relate, for the hyphen, its for more that there should be a pause. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:23, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::I am not arguing about whether it's grammatically correct though. It's just how the title is written on like 90% other websites and store pages, in steam library etc. --Nesciuse (talk) 16:27, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I'm afraid I'm unconvinced from your previous argument as it is not going to mislead anyone, the current is more grammatically correct, falls in line with our manual of styles and the change comes off as a pedantry. I'm going more towards the accurate use of the dash, and would probably only agree if this change was something more strongly associated with the series (i.e: I wouldn't support changing Super Mario Bros. to "Super Mario Brothers" or spelling Pokémon without the é.) The dash is not defining to the title or how its received or recognized. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:42, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::I never said it's going to mislead anyone. mos is not contradicting this change in any way. The only reason this discussion exists is because wikipedia is dumb and doesn't allow move over redirect which would allow me to just move it and end of story and nobody would care. --Nesciuse (talk) 17:45, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. The proposed title with a hyphen with spaces around it is inconsistent with how articles are generally named. Admittedly, the guidelines don't settle everything, as there have been marginal cases where the distinction in the guidelines between when to use hyphens and dashes is inconclusive. (Is the name Carson–Newman University a "compounded proper name[] of [a] single entit[y]" (hyphen) or composed of two separate entities (dash)? ... how are people supposed to determine that? No consensus.) In such a case it may be better to look to sources' styles after all, than to have editors debate metaphysically. In this case, though, it doesn't seem to be a inconclusive question under the guidelines. Adumbrativus (talk) 04:35, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
• :How does it matter how "articles are generally named" ? If something is a literal name then that's what the title should reflect. Store pages, steam library all use hyphen for this game. --Nesciuse (talk) 11:37, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::To answer your question Wikipedia:Article titles suggests we format things for consistency. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:*Oppose – MOS:DASH

:– zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 20:49, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

::That page doesn't say anything useful in the context of this. This is not about grammar. Either way Wikipedia:Article titles the user above posted is convincing enough so I concede. Anyone feel free to close the request --Nesciuse (talk) 09:10, 1 June 2025 (UTC)