Talk:Vance

People known as Vance (with source in their in article) should be on this dab page. Christian75 (talk) 21:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

1. WP:DABNAME: The cited guideline notes that if {{Talk quote inline|...there is a primary topic, then the tag "(disambiguation)" is added to the name of the disambiguation page, as in Jupiter (disambiguation)}}. As the rest of the rationale illustrates, JD Vance is the primary topic for Vance.

2. WP:PT1: Using the 4 following tools mentioned at WP:DPT, we see that Vice President Vance is the topic a generic reader will seek after when searching Vance.

2a. WikiNav visuals: As demonstrated by this tool, the majority of readers accessing the Vance disambiguation page proceed to the Vance surname article. Moreover, of the majority who to go to Vance (surname), another majority proceed to articles related to America’s vice president.

{{Collapse top|title=Evidence supporting claim}}

[https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Vance A]: In March 2025, 91.22% of all outgoing page views for Vance were to Vance (surname) (76.19%), JD Vance directly (13.85%), or Vice President of the United States (1.18%).

[https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Vance_%28surname%29 B]: In March 2025, 58.61% of all incoming page views for Vance (surname) were from Vance. Additionally, that same month, 82% of all outgoing page views for Vance (surname) were to JD Vance (78.53%) or Vice President of the United States (3.47%).

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2b. Google Scholar results: Vice President Vance first achieved prominence in 2016 when he published Hillbilly Elegy, his memoir. Since then, 87.13% of all English-language scholarly mentions of Vance are in reference to JD:

{{Collapse top|title=Evidence supporting claim}}

[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_vis=1&q=vance&hl=en&as_sdt=0,50&as_ylo=2016&as_yhi=2025 C]: From 2016 to April 23, 2025, there have been 115,000 English results for Vance on Google Scholar.

[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C50&as_ylo=2016&as_yhi=2025&as_vis=1&q=vance+-jd+-j.d.+-vice+president+-trump&btnG= D]: However, once "JD", "J.D." (variations of the Vice President’s first name), "Trump" (the Vice President’s boss), and "Vice President" are filtered out, only 14,800 results remain (12.87% of the original total).

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2c. Article traffic statistics: [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2016-01-01&end=2025-04-22&pages=JD_Vance|J.D._Vance|Vance,_Alabama|Vance_Township,_Vermilion_County,_Illinois|Vance,_Mississippi|Vance_County,_North_Carolina|Vance,_South_Carolina|Vance,_Virginia|Vance,_West_Virginia|Vance_Air_Force_Base E], [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2016-01-01&end=2025-04-22&pages=JD_Vance|J.D._Vance|Vanc%C3%A9|Mount_Vance|Vance_Bluff|Vance_Seamounts|Vance_Industrial_Estate|Vance_(surname)|Vance_(given_name)|Cyclone_Vance F], and [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2016-01-01&end=2025-04-22&pages=JD_Vance|J.D._Vance|USS_Vance|Vance_International_Airways|Vance_High_School|Vance_Cemetery G]: From the linked [https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Cloud_Services_introduction Wikimedia Cloud Service] data analyses, it can be seen that Vice President Vance's article receives at least 7861% more daily average views than everything else listed on this disambiguation page since the publication of Hillbilly Elegy in 2016. The hatted table provides more specific calculations:

{{Collapse top|Evidence supporting claim}}

;Notes

{{notelist}}

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2d. Incoming article wikilinks: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/JD_Vance&limit=500&offset=0%7C764064&dir=prev I], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/JD_Vance&limit=500&offset=0%7C760312&dir=next II], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/JD_Vance&limit=500&offset=0%7C6983977&dir=next III], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/JD_Vance&limit=500&offset=0%7C36496850&dir=next IV], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/JD_Vance&limit=500&offset=0%7C67499617&dir=next V], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/JD_Vance&limit=500&offset=2%7C62477439&dir=next VI], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/J.D._Vance&limit=100 VII], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Vance,_Alabama&limit=250 VIII], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Vance_Township,_Vermilion_County,_Illinois&limit=100 IX], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Vance,_Mississippi&limit=100 X], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Vance_County,_North_Carolina&limit=500 XI], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Vance_County,_North_Carolina&limit=500&dir=next&offset=1%7C3036164 XII],

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Vance,_South_Carolina&limit=100 XIII],

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Vance,_Virginia&limit=250 XIV],

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Vance,_West_Virginia&limit=100 XV], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Vance_Air_Force_Base&limit=500 XVI], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Vanc%C3%A9&limit=500 XVII], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere?target=Mount+Vance&namespace=&limit=50 XVIII], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere?target=Vance+Bluff&namespace=&limit=50 XIX], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere?target=Vance+Seamounts&namespace=&limit=50 XX], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere?target=Vance+Industrial+Estate&namespace=&limit=50 XXI], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere?target=Vance+%28surname%29&namespace=&limit=50 XXII], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere?target=Vance+%28given+name%29&namespace=&limit=50 XXIII], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Cyclone_Vance&limit=250 XXIV], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/USS_Vance&limit=250 XXV], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere?target=Vance+International+Airways&namespace=&limit=50 XXVI], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere?target=Vance+High+School&namespace=&limit=50 XXVII], and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere?target=Vance+Cemetery&namespace=&limit=50 XXVIII]: From the linked Special:WhatLinksHere search results, it can be seen that Vice President Vance's article has at least 430% more incoming links than each of those for everything else listed on this page. The hatted table provides more specific calculations:

{{Collapse top|Evidence supporting claim}}

;Notes

{{notelist}}

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2e. Google search results: Beyond the WP:DPT tools, general English-language Google hits show the Vice President’s primacy. 98.88% of all results relate to JD:

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[https://www.google.com/search?as_q=vance&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=lang_en&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&as_filetype=&tbs= H]: As of April 24, 2025, there are 337 million English results for Vance on Google.

[https://www.google.com/search?q=vance+-jd+-j.d.+-trump+-vice+president&lr=lang_en&newwindow=1&sca_esv=e82f467cc295a493&as_qdr=all&tbs=lr%3Alang_1en&sxsrf=AHTn8zpuFYI1AirO6T2F-TObmra6w8hUyQ%3A1745397661558&ei=nacIaPryIfDWptQP2YDJsAI&ved=0ahUKEwi6te_84O2MAxVwq4kEHVlAEiYQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=vance+-jd+-j.d.+-trump+-vice+president&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiJnZhbmNlIC1qZCAtai5kLiAtdHJ1bXAgLXZpY2UgcHJlc2lkZW50SJ4fUKAEWPAbcAF4AZABAJgBM6ABmgSqAQIxM7gBA8gBAPgBAZgCAaACA8ICChAAGLADGNYEGEeYAwCIBgGQBgiSBwExoAfJBLIHALgHAA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp I]: However, once "JD", "J.D.", "Trump", and "Vice President" are filtered out, only 3.79 million results remain (1.12% of the original total).

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3. WP:PT2/WP:LTS: As argued further below, JD Vance's role as Vice President of the United States, as well as his views on global foreign policy, confer him a long-term significance worthy of primary topic status, in the spirit of the cited guideline.

3a. WP:LTS notability: [https://apnews.com/article/vice-presidents-kamala-harris-jd-vance-ford-23ff742679273d6ab134664959588088 Megerian 2024] - As illustrated by the linked Associated Press article, the position of Vice President of the United States is one of global relevance. 1 in 5 officeholders have gone on to become President of the United States and make decisions that have affected communities around the planet.

{{Collapse top|title=Specific examples supporting claim}}

This includes Harry S. Truman, who ended a global conflict by dropping two bombs on Japan, and Lyndon B. Johnson, who helped shape Vietnam’s contemporary trajectory by increasing American presence in the Vietnam War.

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3b. WP:LTS educational value: Although Vance may have only been Vice President for three months, his views on foreign policy, a realm of politics with international players, have challenged traditional perspectives. Commentators worldwide are noting the impact of Vance's opinions, as the hatted sources show. I have no doubts that political scientists, historians, military experts, social studies teachers, and others will have opportunities to learn from Vance’s rhetoric and encourage critical discussions in places like school classrooms and executive offices. Indeed, Wikipedia recognizes the WP:NOTABILITY of Vance's foreign policy through its article on the 2025 JD Vance speech at the Munich Security Conference.

{{Collapse top|title=News quotes showing Vance's global impact (all emphases mine)}}

[https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/us-vance-vp-controversies-1.7474214 Iorfida 2025, writing for CBC (Canada)]:

{{Talk quote|Vice-presidents have traditionally toiled in the shadows of the men who appointed them or have been given specific marching orders ... But after only six weeks on the job, Vance has been omnipresent at events and online, where he frequently responds to social media posts ... Vance has also already inspired a protest, rare for a vice-president ... But most of Vance's controversial statements so far have involved foreign policy, as he has questioned or even lectured leaders to their faces}}

[https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly82yx09zeo Wendling 2025, writing for BBC (United Kingdom)]:

{{Talk quote|Vance's first major foreign speech, at the Munich Security Conference in mid-February, caught many by surprise ... he used his debut on the international stage to berate close US allies about immigration and free speech, suggesting the European establishment was anti-democratic ... days later he was back in the news, at the centre of a blistering row with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky ... Vance accused Zelensky of lacking respect, of sending politicians on a "propaganda tour" of Ukraine and of being insufficiently thankful for US aid ... The argument [between Vance and Zelensky] left European leaders scrambling to defend Zelensky, while also trying to maintain negotiations over a possible peace deal}}

[https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/03/05/jd-vance-the-ideologue-radicalizing-trump-s-foreign-policy_6738825_4.html Smolar 2025, writing for Le Monde (France)]:

{{Talk quote|The explosive meeting with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in the same location on February 28 showed the world the original yet predominant role played by the vice president in this administration}}

[https://www.rt.com/news/612796-vance-said-what-americans-think/ Lukyanov 2025, writing for RT (Russia)]:

{{Talk quote|US Vice President J.D. Vance’s landmark speech at the Munich Security Conference on Friday has been attributed to various factors ... Yet the most crucial element of Vance’s speech goes beyond personalities or ideological rifts. It reflects a fundamental shift in global politics. The key question today is whether the Cold War should finally end within the framework of the 20th century or whether it should continue indefinitely}}

[https://english.news.cn/20250408/bd2c2e71a1e948c79063af1818610af9/c.html Huaxia 2025, from Xinhua News Agency (China)]:

{{Talk quote|The U.S. borrows money from Chinese peasants to buy the things those Chinese peasants manufacture, Vance said in the interview ... 'To hear words that lack knowledge and respect, like those uttered by this vice president, is both surprising and kind of lamentable,' [Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Lin Jian] added.}}

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AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 00:33, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

• Weak oppose Not convinced by a lot of these numbers. Trying the supposed Google Scholar measurement for 2000-2010 ([https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=vance&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C50&as_vis=1&as_ylo=2000&as_yhi=2010 with], [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=vance+-jd+-j.d.+-vice+president+-trump&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C50&as_vis=1&as_ylo=2000&as_yhi=2010 without]) shows that 86% are for the VP ... before he was famous. [https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=vance+-author%3Avance&so=rel JStor] shows that Zebulon Baird Vance has a strong claim to historical significance too, for which plenty of quotations could be pulled. In pageviews, it does not seem that the VP gets more than all other Vances combined. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 03:17, 24 April 2025 (UTC)
• Strong oppose There are too many other "Vance"s (as seen on Vance (surname) for one of them to claim massive historical significance. Judging solely by pageviews is obvious recentism. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:22, 24 April 2025 (UTC)
• I appreciate the effort in trying to nicely format the discussion, but this seems really excessive. Anyway.

: We already split the surname list out, and make it hard to navigate to other notable biographies such as Courtney B. Vance, Vivian Vance and Cyrus Vance. This would change make that even harder. We don't currently make it that hard to navigate to the current politician because that link does seem to be listed here already.

: [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/massviews/?platform=all-access&agent=user&source=wikilinks&range=all-time&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&target=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vance%20(surname) All-time mass views for all people named Vance] shows a lot of interest in all of those people. [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=1&start=2015-07&end=2025-03&pages=JD_Vance|Courtney_B._Vance|Vivian_Vance|Cyrus_Vance All-time monthly page views for these four] shows the interest in the politician only started growing a few years back, while the others have been fairly consistent. The trend is certainly positive, but this is still an encyclopedia, not a news site. The WP:Recentism issue here is very obvious.

: Is the average English encyclopedia reader in any way surprised they have to navigate to the politician by clicking once when looking up his surname? It seems doubtful, since the surname has long been recognized as ambiguous, as there were all these other notable people with it. (Oppose) --Joy (talk) 09:40, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

::BTW, the most obvious change to do here to help reader navigation would be to move the people section on top, or into a common section (MOS:DABCOMMON). --Joy (talk) 10:05, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose as this is not a Trump situation. Vance just recently became vice president and has not had time to be established as the primary redirect for long-term significance. Agreeing with Hameltion here. cookie monster 755 12:21, 24 April 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose, vastly more Vances than Trumps, even if he is star of his own meme about killing the Pope. Hyperbolick (talk) 01:23, 25 April 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose. No primary topic. Jack Vance, for instance, is also pretty notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:30, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Given the especially contentious conversation I anticipate regarding this page move, I would like to preemptively answer some possible questions:

1. What about the readers who are interested in something called Vance but not the Vice President?

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A hatnote will be placed at the top of JD's article that will quickly guide those readers to this page so that they can find their desired topic. The hatnote will likely read as follows:

{{Redirect|Vance}}

This solution is also consistent with the guidance at WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT, namely {{Talk quote inline|The primary topic for the search term "Einstein" is the physicist, but the article title is Albert Einstein. Here Einstein redirects to Albert Einstein, and a hatnote then links to Einstein (disambiguation)}}, which addresses another example of a surname being a primary topic for a specific person.

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2. Why is [insert surname of another American vice president here] not a primary redirect to their article?

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As far as I know, whether or not one term is a primary topic on Wikipedia does not affect whether a related term will be a primary topic. That being said, I will explain why I believe some other vice presidential surnames are not primary topics (namely those of my lifetime, since 1999):

• Gore and Pence are both common nouns in the English language. As Merriam-Webster notes, [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gore gore] can refer to a triangular piece of land, among other meanings. Likewise, [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pence pence] is the plural form for penny. Although Al Gore and Mike Pence may have long-term significance, I doubt that this importance exceeds those of the generic dictionary definitions.
• Cheney can refer to multiple people with long-term significance. Vice President Dick almost certainly has worldwide prominence for his support of the Iraq War, as noted in [https://apnews.com/article/cheney-gonzales-harris-endorsement-trump-mainstream-republicans-224d7be9ee7ebb6dc699bca5339a4458 this Associated Press article]. However, his daughter Liz has also made headlines. Namely, [https://apnews.com/article/cheney-defeat-marks-end-of-era-for-gop-65c8b400b533dffc422322031a0dbf5c as noted by the Associated Press], Liz represents a faction of the United States Republican Party, whose policies have global impacts, that is strongly opposed to the predominant Trumpism.
• (Biden is a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to Joe Biden, but unlike the other cited leaders, Joe was also a president of the United States. This is probably why he is an exception to this pattern.)
• Harris is a very common surname. As noted [https://www2.census.gov/topics/genealogy/2010surnames/surnames.pdf on page 8 of this Census Bureau document], there were over 600,000 people in the United States alone whose last name was Harris. Such a high frequency makes it quite doubtful that Kamala Harris could claim primary topic status, even if she had won her most recent bid for the American presidency.
• It also does not help that Vice President Harris shares her first name with an appellation for Lakshmi, a goddess with long-term significance in Hinduism, as noted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Kamala&oldid=1239312506#Requested_move_2_August_2024 in this move discussion] at Talk:Kamala.

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3. Are you aware that another requested move (RM) is taking place regarding the primary topic status of Vance's boss?

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Yes, I was aware of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Trump&oldid=1286965505#Requested_move_25_March_2025 the ongoing discussion] at Talk:Trump when I made this request. Building on my answer to the previous question, I chose to not wait until the Trump discussion ended before starting this Vance one because of the "common noun factor".

In other words, as others have mentioned in the Trump discussion so far, Trump can refer to cards as a common noun outside of an American political context. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trump Merriam-Webster confirms this]. However, Vance does not have any dictionary definition in English. When I typed Vance into Merriam-Webster, [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vance the server explicitly told me there were no entries for that term].

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AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 00:33, 24 April 2025 (UTC)