Talk:Vice President of China#Requested move 4 March 2025

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• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20131012112327/http://english.gov.cn/2013-03/14/content_2353971.htm to http://english.gov.cn/2013-03/14/content_2353971.htm
• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20080512074841/http://english.gov.cn/links/presidency.htm to http://english.gov.cn/links/presidency.htm

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• Jiangzemin1 - Zeng Qinghong(Cropped).png

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Premier of the People's Republic of China which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 08:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

{{requested move/dated|multiple=yes

|current1=Vice President of China|new1=Vice president of China|current2=Vice Premier of China|new2=Vice premier of China|}}

• :Vice President of China → {{no redirect|Vice president of China}}
• :Vice Premier of China → {{no redirect|Vice premier of China}}

– Not proper names, as supported by the article leads since 2021. MOS:JOBTITLES says not to cap. Dicklyon (talk) 11:26, 4 March 2025 (UTC)— Relisting. FOARP (talk) 10:14, 14 March 2025 (UTC) — Relisting.  ASUKITE 14:29, 21 March 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Valorrr ^{(lets chat)} 01:14, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose - as we don't do this at Vice President of the United States, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Deputy Prime Minister of Canada, etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 17:35, 4 March 2025 (UTC)
• :Good point. I should have waited to see which way WT:Manual of Style/Biography#RfC on simplifying MOS:JOBTITLES goes. I hadn't notice that the different case in the lead was due to the "The" there. Dicklyon (talk) 21:01, 4 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::WP:JOBTITLES doesn't cover article titles. GoodDay (talk) 14:52, 6 April 2025 (UTC)
• Support The formal titles are Vice Premier of the State Council of the People's Republic of China and Vice President of the People's Republic of China. MOS:JOBTITLES tells us to cap {{tq|When a formal title for a specific entity}}. The present article titles are not the formal titles of the positions and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not the formal title of prime minister of the United Kingdom; however, the example at JOBTITLES is inconsistent with the guidance as written. The other examples are not inconsistent with the present guidance. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:56, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose per GoodDay. Unique posts held by one person at a time are capitalised. The RfC and, indeed, MOS:JOBTITLES are irrelevant to article titling. They're about use within articles. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:14, 11 March 2025 (UTC)
• :MOS:JOBTITLES is part of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography. It is invoked at MOS:CAPS#Titles of people. MOS:CAPS is invoked by WP:AT through WP:NCCAPS. JOBTITLES has standing. On the otherhand, we could argue not to cap on the basis of NCCAPS directly, which states: {{tq|For multiword page titles, one should leave the second and subsequent words in lowercase unless the title phrase is a proper name that would always occur capitalized, even mid-sentence}} [emphasis added]. If something is not always capped in sources, it is not a proper name and should not be capped here. The ngams for [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Vice+premier+of+China&year_start=1950&year_end=2022&case_insensitive=true&corpus=en&smoothing=3 Vice premier of China] and [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Vice+President+of+China&year_start=1950&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=true Vice president of China] (links are to ngrams] are far from always capped so they should not be capitalised in these titles. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:33, 12 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::Following that line of reasoning, we should decap every single job title because not one of them is always capitalised in every source. There are probably thousands of unique job titles that have articles. But, given there is no consensus to do so, we should leave these alone too. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:06, 12 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::They are capitalised because of the guidance at JOBTITLES as it presently stands which you say doesn't apply. If that is the case, then we need to consider whether a job title is a proper name per NCCAPS. That is a consequence of your argument. If it is not a proper name, then we shouldn't cap it. Are you saying that proper names are not always capped? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cinderella157 (talk • contribs) 02:28, 13 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::::You really don't seem to understand that JOBTITLES has no relevance to article titles! And yes, proper names are always capped. Which is why this is, as the title of a unique post is a proper name! It doesn't matter that it's not the formal name (which is in Chinese in any case). -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:42, 13 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::::But this is far from always capped in sources, ergo it is not a proper name. Cinderella157 (talk) 21:11, 13 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::::I disagree with the notion that MOS:JOBTITLES is not relevant to article titles. Article titles are formatted like sentences in article body text, and the same principles should (and I believe do) apply to both. But here we do need to consider how seriously to apply the concept of the formality of a (translated) title. I note that MOS:JOBTITLES says to use title case for the conventional translation of a formal title for a specific entity. I think we can all agree that "French king" and "U.S. president" are not sufficiently formal, but these Chinese position names are pretty conventional, commonly used, seemingly formal titles. We have other examples of conventional pseudo-formal titles even within the English usage that are typically capitalized, such as Foreign Secretary of the United Kingdom, which is a position that has a longer more formal and official title (Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs of the United Kingdom). This may fall within the spirit of being a conventional (translation of a) formal title for a specific entity. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:12, 13 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::Another example in English may be Home Secretary, more formally the Secretary of State for the Home Department. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:54, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::Pseudo-formal titles are not formal titles and there is no disagreement as to the conventional translation of the formal titles for these Chinese positions. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:33, 15 March 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose. We use title case for titles in these cases. Rreagan007 (talk) 06:22, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
• Support—no we don't, Reagan. My support is per Cinderella's entry. Tony (talk) 10:29, 15 March 2025 (UTC)
• Support per MOS:JOBTITLES. Have a "really obvious" holdout at a particular article of this sort, but its overcapitalized title doesn't even agree with its lead sentence. Whatever wannabe-LOCALCONSENSUS has been thwarting the normalization of these article titles, even as they fail to get what they want in the text at the same articles and in the titles of virtually all directly comparable articles, that factional blockade behavior needs to end. This is not TakeMyPetSubjectHostageThroughQuixoticStonewallingPedia.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:42, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

::Are you suggesting certain editors be barred from these types of RMs? GoodDay (talk) 21:48, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:Note: WikiProject China and WikiProject Socialism have been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 14:28, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

:Relisting comment: Focusing on specific policy-based arguments, as well as debating their applicability to this RM would be most productive ASUKITE 14:29, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose per Good Day. This concerns a specific Vice President, not a generic term for the description of the job title and office. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:34, 27 March 2025 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. WP:TITLECONSISTENCY with Vice President of the United States, Deputy Prime Minister of Canada, and alike. Cfls (talk) 21:46, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

:Relisting comment: Relisting to gather more consensus. Valorrr ^{(lets chat)} 01:14, 16 April 2025 (UTC)