Talk:White genocide conspiracy theory#Proposed Criticism section inclusion

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Is white genocide a myth?

:There are no reliable sources suggesting that the conspiracy theory is not a political myth. There are many reliable sources indicating that it is, such as:

:*"The Myth of White Genocide" [https://harpers.org/archive/2019/03/the-myth-of-white-genocide-in-south-africa/ Harper's,] March 2019

:*"White genocide: A dangerous myth employed by racists" [https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/white-genocide-a-dangerous-myth-employed-by-racists-1.3981739 The Irish Times,] August 2019

:*"The Hate Report: The story behind Trump’s South Africa tweet" [https://www.revealnews.org/blog/the-hate-report-the-story-behind-trumps-south-africa-tweet/ Reveal,] August 2018

:*"The South Africans pushing the 'white genocide' myth" [https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2018/11/16/white-genocide-in-south-africa-cnn-lon-orig.cnn CNN,] November 2018

:*"The dangerous myth of 'white genocide'" [https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/08/23/dangerous-myth-white-genocide-south-africa SPLC,] August 2018

:*"Facebook allowed advertisers to target users interested in “'white genocide" — even in wake of Pittsburgh massacre" [https://theintercept.com/2018/11/02/facebook-ads-white-supremacy-pittsburgh-shooting/ The Intercept,] November 2018

:*"The deadly myth of 'White Genocide'" [https://www.abc.net.au/religion/the-deadly-myth-of-white-genocide/10917562 Australian Broadcasting Corporation,] March 2019

Are white farmers being targeted in South Africa?

:While many farmers in South Africa have been targeted in attacks against landowners, there is no evidence that the attackers are targeting people because they are white. This topic is covered in some of the references above and at South African farm attacks.

Why doesn't this article include extrapolations of human genetic phenotype expression into the future?

:Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. There is no way to validate the accuracy of any such predictions, and those predictions which show a wide demographic shift are based on assumptions which are both uncertain, and likely to substantially change the outcome of the extrapolations if they are wrong. There are at least as many factors at play as expressed alleles in the human genome, leading to confidence intervals much wider than the range of predictions.

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{{Old XfD multi |date=23 September 2018 |result=speedy keep |page=White genocide conspiracy theory}}

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"Julius Malema MP reacted, saying "there is no white genocide in South Africa"

Is this a joke? Why quote someone who actually openly calls for white genocide. Of course he is going to claim that. Why is his quote used as a definitive source? Here is one example: "Shoot to kill! Kill the Boer! The farmer! - Julius Malema". Is this not a call for genocide?

https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1754905357267177692

https://x.com/DrewPavlou/status/1888648137339813941

Performing to a 100k strong crowd: “Shoot to kIll, kIll the boer, the farmer, prrr phaa, prrr phaa”

https://x.com/twatterbaas/status/1764284927246217332

Maybe we should include this quote from Malema: “These people, when you want to hit them hard, go after a white man. They feel terrible pain because you have touched a white man. We're cutting the throat of whiteness. We will kill white women, children, and their pets.”

Here, he is saying that on camera:

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1888589439334584813

Elon Musk: "This is a major political party in the South African parliament and their leader is calling for genocide of white people"

So can we add a quote from Elon Musk? Or we can only quote Malema who claims "there is no white genocide in SA"? Zp112 (talk) 22:04, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

:The source for Malema's quote is the Guardian, which is a generally reliable outlet:

:*{{cite news|date=23 August 2018|title=Donald Trump's land seizures tweet draws angry reaction in South Africa|work=The Guardian|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/23/trump-orders-close-study-of-south-africa-farmer-killings|access-date=23 August 2018|archive-date=14 January 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210114222821/https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/23/trump-orders-close-study-of-south-africa-farmer-killings|url-status=live}}

:If you know of a reliable source for this, propose it for discussion. WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Decontextualized retweets originating from conspiracy theorists are very, very unlikely to be reliable sources. Grayfell (talk) 22:32, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

::"The source for Malema's quote is the Guardian" -- so technically you are correct. But do you see the irony here? That is the same Malema who also literally calls for the genocide in his speeches but because he denies that and his denial was quoted by the Guardian which is considered a "reliable source" we have to conclude that Malema's statement is true despite the evidence of the opposite -- regular calls for violence in his speeches. But because his speeches and calls for violence against whites are not covered by "reliable sources", this info is not reliable and cannot be included in the article even though there are tons of videos of him saying that but somehow what you can see with your own eyes is not a reliable source! Zp112 (talk) 21:39, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

:::There's nothing 'ironic' about this. If you have a reliable source, share it. Grayfell (talk) 22:43, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

:"So can we add a quote from Elon Musk?" Since when is Elon Musk and his propaganda reliable sources? Where is Musk's reputation for fact-checking? Dimadick (talk) 22:39, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

::But quoting Malema is fine? That's a reliable source, right? Zp112 (talk) 21:28, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

:::If a reliable source says he said it, then we can say he said it, if it is also WP:DUE. But is it due? I don't see how angry words from the leader of a party with 10% of the National Assembly amounts to genocide. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:09, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Oh great, "it is only 10%, it is nothing". I understand the video right from the horse's mouth is not a "reliable source". But if he is so irrelevant, why does this article quote him as proof that there is nothing to worry about and "it is just a conspiracy theory, bro"? The editors could have picked some other politician who, at the very least, doesn't openly call for something he denies. Zp112 (talk) 03:36, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::You can't use THE source. You have to use a reliable source that is referencing THE source. Whoever controls the media, controls the mind. 101.173.21.8 (talk) 00:49, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

I am unable to find any actual white genocide in SA in any reliable sources. The Guardian article is more informative if fully digested. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:18, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

Elon Musk’s racist misrepresentation of Witkruis

This topic is in the news now owing to disinformation by Elon Musk, who has falsely stated that the Witkruis Monument is a graveyard for murdered white farmers. Musk’s lie is now being repeated by gullible Americans and racist propagandists. See: https://www.msn.com/en-za/news/other/so-many-crosses-elon-musk-reacts-to-clip-of-farmers-memorial-site-witkruis-monument-sa-divides/ar-AA1ELe9C 105.247.232.34 154.66.194.115 (talk) 22:57, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:There is evidence that Musk is now using his Grok AI to promote the white genocide conspiracy theory. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2025/05/elon-musk-grok-white-genocide/682817/ 174.208.228.114 (talk) 18:39, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

Origin of the white genocide myth

I suggest that a section be added to explain the origin of the myth that farm attacks are racially motivated. This conspiracy theory appears to have been based on unfounded speculations by Lita Cross Fourie in 2003, after the brutal torture and murders of her parents by robbers. See: https://www.news24.com/farmer-murders-genocide-20030710

Subsequent reports contradict claims that race was a factor in that attack: https://iol.co.za/news/south-africa/2006-08-02-i-asked-them-if-my-dad-fought-back/ 196.24.40.133 (talk) 00:44, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:Do any reliable source to directly link this to the history of the myth? Without such a source this is a form of original research. The News24 source also seems to suggest that this was already somewhat of an issue by the time of those particular murders, as Willie Lewies of the Transvaal Agricultural Union is cited comparing this to 'ethnic cleansing' and 'genocide'. Grayfell (talk) 07:26, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Dead white farmers

The rows of crosses lining a road in South Africa all representing a white farmer. The EFF calling for the death of all white people in South Africa. These are two examples of why this is not a myth or conspiracy theory 2603:6010:7023:DD00:ACFA:FE7D:B924:8086 (talk) 19:42, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:Not without secondary reliable sources stating this. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:57, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::The source is the fact there is a disproportionate number of dead farmers that died of non-natural circumstances, the medical examiners are not allowed to discuss anything, and the only thing they share in common is race.

::The first hand sources are the people that have to segregated and live in compounds to not be targeted, raped, murdered, and dismembered. You know, the people actually being victimized, not your media gods that lied about: Covid, Russia fate, the Biden laptop, continue to ride the fence on the Israel-Gaza issue.

::How about this. Evidence is evidence, reporting is conjecture that requires evidence. Reporting is not evidence alone. 2600:100C:B03E:CA69:0:3F:D7F0:AE01 (talk) 21:59, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::This is WP:NOTFORUM. If you have reliable secondary sources provide them. Ranting about Covid, Hunter Biden, Russia, and Gaza is not useful. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:04, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::It's simple. This is an encyclopedia. It is not a forum, news outlet, or a place for original research. Wikipedia relies on verifiable sources. If there is really genocide going on there, it will come out eventually in reliable sources and it will be included here at that time. Wikipedia is not the place to initiate an investigating as to why White farmers are being killed in great numbers. And there's nothing Wikipedia can do to stop it. Masterhatch (talk) 22:15, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:Wikipedia is a reality-based encyclopaedia. Trump's claim is not based on reality, but on a temporary protest about exactly two deaths (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce9vxve994ro). Most white farmers who have been killed, have been during robberies. South Africa is an incredibly violent country, and deaths in the commission of crime are extremely common.

:I do know of one group that is targeted with deadly violence based on race, by Black South Africans: Makwerekwere. Guy (help! - typo?) 15:32, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Article Name Change Inquiry

Considering that White genocide (Armenians) is already a distinction, would changing the article title to "White genocide (conspiracy theory)" be a prudent change? I am admittedly a green editor, so I am unsure what the convention is for distinguishing articles with the same base words should be.TWorkman (talk) 14:23, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

:I have no idea why that article exists, it is basically a specific take on Armenian genocide. Guy (help! - typo?) 15:34, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

::TWorkman, have a look at our guideline on disambiguation. Typically when an article title has a word or phrase in parenthesis, it's our way of differentiating (or "disambiguating") two topics with very similar or ambiguous names. The common example is "apple", which is both a fruit and a technology company: for technical reasons we can't have two pages called Apple, so one (or sometimes both) have to be called something else, like Apple (company) (actually that article is called Apple Inc.; I'll get to that). In this case there are several topics that could be called "white genocide"; the page we're on is about a conspiracy theory, while the one you linked to is about a different topic with the same name that's relevant in the context of Armenian history.

::These are examples of parenthetical disambiguation. The guideline suggests that natural disambiguation is preferable - that's when we choose a name for the topic that is naturally unambiguous, rather than tacking on a term in parenthesis, like "Apple Inc." above. That's how we ended up with the current title. In fact we did try White genocide (conspiracy theory) in the past - that title is now a redirect to this article.

::I hope that helps. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:09, 22 May 2025 (UTC)