Talk:Yeon Gaesomun

his surname wasn't Yeon, it was two-syllable surname; Yóngae and his first name was Somún.

during the threekingdoms period, most of koreans did not have single-syllable surnames like now, they had two or even three-syllable surnames, such as Úljí, Húkchí and so on.

:Well, 210.55.227.203, I'm not sure. I can't find any information that directly states which was his family name and which his first name. However, I note that his sons included Yeon Nam-geon (연남건/淵男建) and also Yeon Nam-saeng (연남생/淵男生), who defected to Tang. This would seem to suggest that Yeon was the family name; otherwise surely they would be known as Yeongae Namsaeng and Yeongae Namgeon. If you have any evidence that Yeongae was the family name, please let me know. -- Visviva 13:30, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:: Korean only started having surnames during Goryo Dynasty, prior to Goryo period, Koreans didn't have surnames. However, they did used some sort of clan titles and given names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Consoleman (talk • contribs) 09:07, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

it has been confirmed that yeon's surname was infact yeon, however, it is widely known both in korea and japan, that his name pronounciation in Goguryeo language is 'Iri Kasumi', where Iri is Yeon, and Kasumi is Gaesomun.

:Source? -- Visviva 00:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

::New Book of Tang[http://ef.cdpa.nsysu.edu.tw/ccw/02/ntan23.htm] gave his personal name as Gaesomun. --Nlu (talk) 17:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

::: In thesedays his name would have sound more like Kasumen, hence his name was indeed Gaesomun in modern korean pronunciation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KoreanSentry (talk • contribs) 06:19, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

did you know? yeon carried five swords. I got it from this one book, but can't remember the title.Odst 04:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I remember reading that too. It was part of an official Chinese record when Tang or Sui, I can't remember, sent an emissary to Goguryeo. Yeon Gaesomun was seen by that emissary to be "a hideous violent man," bearing 5 swords at once. But he carried five swords probably to intimidate the emissary, plus all those five swords werent really for fighting -- they were the traditional HwanDuDaeDo swords with a ring on the butt of the hilt. They were given by the king as a proof of a special position someone held in military or in court. Remember, Yeon Gaesomun practically was the ruler in Goguryeo by that time? He had all the important official positions to himself. That is why one man is seen carrying so many swords.

:In later period of Gogureyo and three kingdom period of Korea, sword represented today's badges something like the Cop badge. This practice were forbidden during Koryo period, however it was symbolic, Yeon's five swords represented five powerful clans of Gogureyo also showing he was the one who represented all five political clans.

Thanks to whoever added that photo... that makes him look like a charismatic man. (He was, actually) Odst 04:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

: what photo? Don't see any pictures. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Consoleman (talk • contribs) 09:13, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

{{user|Korea history}}, your point is taken in that Chinese texts may not be neutral. However, you have cited no source in support of your edits. Korean history texts are acceptable citations. Korean fiction is not. Please cite some actual history in support of your edits. Further, simply eliminating the traditional Chinese accounts -- which are supported by traditional Chinese historians who had little reason to embellish a prior dynasty's achievements -- and replacing them with your version is a blatant violation of WP:NPOV. See Trung Sisters for an example of how an NPOV placement of multiple versions of the same campaign might be written. --Nlu (talk) 18:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

:I've looked at the Samguk Sagi. It doesn't support your edits either. The Joseon Sangosa's overglorification of Korean history has been noted by Korean scholars themselves. Don't rely on it as your only source. Cite something more ancient and/or reliable. --Nlu (talk) 17:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Meanwhile, for Korean editors there -- I must say that my interests have been piqued enough. If any of you know how I can buy either an English or a Traditional Chinese translation of the Joseon Sanggosa (if one exists in either language), I would appreciate a pointer. (I assume that it was written in Hangul; if there is a Hanja edition, that will suffice even though there may be some grammatical constructs or vocabulary that I don't understand.) --Nlu (talk) 19:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Making comparisons between 7th century Korea and 1930s Europe is a bit much (re. reference to Chamberlain and Hitler). This entire article is in fact veering into very subjective territory and almost picking a fight. I'd keep to the bare facts with passing reference to controversy only. Straitgate 12:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

:{{tl|cleanup-tone}} will be added, but please go ahead and dig in and help. :-) --Nlu (talk) 17:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Done :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.246.40.54 (talk) 20:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

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:Yeon Gaesomun → {{no redirect|Yŏn Kaesomun}} – According to the latest WP:NCKO, McCune-Reischauer Romanization should be used for historical figures. Mahogany115 (talk) 08:17, 2 April 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Valorrr ^{(lets chat)} 16:11, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

:I'm not too sure on this one. From a brief search, there seem to be a few English-language sources that use 'Yeon Gaesomun', some that use 'Yŏn Kaesomun', and quite a lot that use 'Yon Kaesomun' (probably because the diacritic is not easily available on most English-language keyboards). Searching for sources (and identifying the WP:COMMONNAME) is complicated by the eponymous 2006 TV series about him, which as far as I can tell is universally romanized using RR, ie. 'Yeon Gaesomun'. Also, titles for articles about subjects from the same era mostly use RR; these include articles on Goguryeo, Cheolli Jangseong, and Yeon Gaesomun's sons (including Yeon Namsaeng), as well as other history-focused articles such as List of monarchs of Korea, for example. Not sure which WP:MOS policy should apply to this particular article, so I won't give a definitive 'Support' or 'Oppose', but hopefully this info might help other users (more familiar with MOS issues) to draw a conclusion one way or the other. Pineapple Storage (talk) 15:56, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

• Support. Academic sources about him would basically entirely use McCune–Reischauer with diacritics. seefooddiet (talk) 16:03, 3 April 2025 (UTC)
• Support - per nom. A majority of English language academic sources use MR variant of his name. RR in general isn't widely used for Korean history outside of South Korea. While Pineapple Storage fairly points out that a lot of Goguryeo articles still use RR instead of using MR as dictated by the MOS, this is more due to a fact that a lot of article titles haven't been updated to match the standards. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 05:38, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose per Pineapple Storage. Give that a clear majority of sources don't use diacritics, and the consistency with other entries in this category, I don't see a strong reason to change to a title that's harder for English speakers to parse and recognise.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:12, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
• :Do the majority of reliable sources actually not use diacritics? For RR: [https://books.google.ca/books?id=46OTBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA29&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/The_History_of_Korea/FQjJEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=yeon+gaesomun&pg=PT77&printsec=frontcover], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_History_of_Korea/K2tOEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Yeon+Gaesomun&pg=PA6&printsec=frontcover], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Behaving_Badly_in_Early_and_Medieval_Chi/Nh7HDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Yeon+Nam-geon&pg=PA232&printsec=frontcover]. For MR: [https://books.google.ca/books?id=QFPsi3IK8gcC&pg=PA50&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Sources_of_Korean_Tradition/x9q69SroxWkC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Y%C5%8Fn+Kaesomun&pg=PA74&printsec=frontcover], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Empires_of_the_Silk_Road/5jG1eHe3y4EC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Y%C5%8Fn+Kaesomun&pg=PA134&printsec=frontcover], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Imperial_Politics_and_Symbolics_in_Ancie/8fzx6eRzf-AC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Y%C5%8Fn+Kaesomun&pg=PA247&printsec=frontcover], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/The_Three_Kingdoms_of_Korea/q2b_EAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Y%C5%8Fn+Kaesomun&pg=PT80&printsec=frontcover], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Social_Darwinism_and_Nationalism_in_Kore/3N95DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Y%C5%8Fn+Kaesomun&pg=PA185&printsec=frontcover], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Doctrine_and_Practice_in_Medieval_Korean/8B_HDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Y%C5%8Fn+Kaesomun&pg=PA181&printsec=frontcover], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Tang_China_in_Multi_Polar_Asia/L1gEEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Y%C5%8Fn+Kaesomun&pg=PA58&printsec=frontcover], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_New_History_of_Korea/z2n9DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Y%C5%8Fn+Kaesomun&pg=PA67&printsec=frontcover], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/The_North_And_South_Korean_Political_Sys/NlyvDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Y%C5%8Fn+Kaesomun&pg=PA49&printsec=frontcover], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Gateway_to_Japan/o5YBEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Y%C5%8Fn+Kaesomun&pg=PA19&printsec=frontcover],[https://www.google.ca/books/edition/East_Asia/3Z3a0NU4RHMC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Y%C5%8Fn+Kaesomun&pg=PA174&printsec=frontcover], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Korea/kTFYEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Y%C5%8Fn+Kaesomun&pg=PA851&printsec=frontcover], [https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_History_of_the_Early_Korean_Kingdom_of/tgD8EAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Y%C5%8Fn+Kaesomun&pg=PA467&printsec=frontcover]. As Pinneaple Storage points out, a lot of the RR sources are actually mentions of the 2006 South Korean TV show. I also don't think WP:TITLECON applies here, as there's a lot of Korean history articles use MR and a lot that still haven't been updated to the fit the WP:NCKO standards. There is also a precedent for moving pre-1945 Koreans to MR romanization: for example Talk:Chŏng Tojŏn#Requested move 7 July 2024, Talk:Chŏng Mong-ju#Requested move 4 July 2024. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 19:39, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

:Note: WikiProject Korea, WikiProject Military history, and WikiProject Biography have been notified of this discussion. Valorrr ^{(lets chat)} 16:11, 16 April 2025 (UTC)