Talk: Persecution of Hindus

The following addition to "Mughal" section was removed without due reasoning,

There are however reports of Akbar plundering temples and defacing hindu idols after his conquest of Chittoor.{{cite book|author=R. Montgomery Martin|year=1860|title=The History Of The Indian Empire - Volume I |url=https://archive.org/details/TheHistoryOfTheIndianEmpire-VolumeI/page/110/mode/2up |publisher=LONDON PRINTING AND PUBLISHING COMPANY|page=111}} Subsequent Mughal Rulers like Shah Jahan are also reported to have demolished temples, broken down hindu idols and killed Brahmins during his rule.{{cite book|author=R. Montgomery Martin|year=1860|title=The History Of The Indian Empire - Volume I |url=https://archive.org/details/TheHistoryOfTheIndianEmpire-VolumeI/page/110/mode/2up |publisher=LONDON PRINTING AND PUBLISHING COMPANY|page=129}}

{{Reflist-talk}}

There is much misinfo in this article ,for example much of the list of massacres shown on the incidents list , are not due to anti hindu religious violence such as the killing of bengali hindus in assam , this was done by assamese hindus and was a ethnic violence, furthermore other cases are political rather than religious like the murder of shanti kali. Most of the evidence has been blown out of proportion to make it seem like hinduphobia is rampant in india which is far from the truth .The article focuses way more on killings of hindus in india espcially historical ones which have been taken out of context and lacks information of actual relevant hinduphobia that happens in pakistan ,bangladesh and afghanistan. 81.104.76.253 (talk) 09:56, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected|Persecution of Hindus|answered=y}}

Please revert [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Persecution_of_Hindus&diff=prev&oldid=1166614787 this unexplained deletion], made with the misleading edit summary "facebook not a reliable source". 2A00:23EE:19C8:BA81:48C:2DFF:FEC5:9914 (talk) 20:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

{{done}}, with some modifications for better coherence with actual source (India Today):

{{tq|In September 2017, India Today reported that mass graves with bodies of 45 Hindus had been found in Rakhine, and that Hindu Rohingyas faced forced conversions to Islam in Bangladeshi refugee camps at the hands of Muslim Rohingyas.{{cite web|url=https://www.indiatoday.in/india/video/hindu-rohingya-refugees-islam-bangladesh-camps-1069376-2017-09-26|title=Hindu Rohingya refugees forced to convert to Islam in Bangladesh camps|website=India Today|access-date=20 January 2019}}}}

{{talk-ref}}

Xan747 (talk) 23:17, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

{{Edit semi-protected|Persecution of Hindus|answered=yes}}

Change "According to Teotónio de Souza, Hindus faced some persecution along with some fortitude under the Portuguese in Goa." to "According to P. P. Shirodkar, Hindus faced some persecution along with some fortitude under the Portuguese in Goa." The cited source is available on Google Books, that chapter of the book was written by P. P. Shirodkar and not Teotónio de Souza. The second mention of Teotónio de Souza at the end of the same paragraph also has to be changed to P. P. Shirodkar, for the same reason. 49.15.230.55 (talk) 08:37, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

:{{done}} Pinchme123 (talk) 04:06, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

You need to have consensus. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:42, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

• ''Here is a proposed version of the lead with widely accepted information from High quality WP:RS sources. Please User:Kautilya3, could you take note, and revise the lead. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 10:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Hindus have experienced both historical and ongoing religious persecution and systematic violence, in the form of forced conversions, documented massacres, genocides, demolition and desecration of temples, as well as the destruction of educational centers.

In the medieval period, some Muslim rulers viewed the expansion of Islamic rule in the Indian sub-continent as a religious conquest ("holy war") against the Hindus (infidels),{{harvnb|Jackson|2003|pp=278–289}} and desecrated many Hindu temples.{{harvnb|Jackson|2003|pp=19–22, 126–128, 139–142, 173–175, 213–215}}{{cite journal |last=Eaton |first=Richard |year=2000 |title=Temple Desecration and Indo-Muslim States |journal=Journal of Islamic Studies |volume=11 |issue=3 |pages=283–319 |jstor=26198197|doi=10.1093/jis/11.3.283}} During the British rule, Hindu communities lived in a relative calm until the violent partition of India in 1947, which was accompanied by communal riots and large scale displacement.{{citation|last=Fisher|first=Michael H.|year=2018|title=An Environmental History of India: From Earliest Times to the Twenty-First Century|location=Cambridge and New York|publisher=Cambridge University Press |isbn=978-1-107-11162-2 |lccn=2018021693|doi=10.1017/9781316276044|s2cid=134229667 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=kZVuDwAAQBAJ|quote=The partition of South Asia that produced India and West and East Pakistan resulted from years of bitter negotiations.. split roughly along religious 'communal' lines|doi-access=free}}

In modern times, thousands of Hindu Bengalis, were killed along with other Bengalis in the 1971 Bangladesh genocide by Pakistani soldiers.{{Cite web |title=Bangladesh - United States Holocaust Memorial Museum |url=https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/countries/bangladesh |access-date=2023-10-16 |website=www.ushmm.org |language=en-US}}{{cite web |last1=MacDermot |first1=Niall |title=The Review |url=https://www.icj.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/ICJ-Review-8-1972-eng.pdf |publisher=International Commission of Jurists |access-date=29 November 2023 |page=34 |date=June 1972 |quote=As far as the other three groups are concerned, namely members of the Awami League, students and Hindus, only Hindus would seem to fall within the definition of ‘ a national, ethnical, racial or religious group ’. There is overwhelming evidence that Hindus were slaughtered and their houses and villages destroyed simply because they were Hindus. The oft repeated phrase ‘ Hindus are enemies of the state ’ as a justification for the killing does not gainsay the intent to commit genocide; rather does it confirm the intention..}} In 1990, over 100,000 Kashmiri Hindus , had to flee from their homes in the Kashmir Valley for safety amid sporadic killings by militants{{citation |last=Kapur |first=S. Paul |title=Dangerous Deterrent: Nuclear Proliferation and Conflict in South Asia |year=2007 |isbn=978-0-8047-5549-8 |publisher=Stanford University Press |pages=102–103 |quote=When the Kashmir insurgency began, roughly 130,000 to 140,000 Kashmiri Pandits, who are Hindus, lived in Kashmir Valley. By early 1990, in the face of some targeted anti-Pandit attacks and rising overall violence in the region, approximately 100,000 Pandits had fled the valley, many of them ending up in refugee camps in southern Kashmir. }}, and many Kashmiri Hindus ended up living in refugee camps in Jammu.{{citation |last=Rai |first=Mridu |chapter=Narratives from exile: Kashmiri Pandits and their construction of the past |title=Kashmir and the Future of South Asia |editor1-last=Bose |editor1-first=Sugata |editor2-last=Jalal |editor2-first=Ayesha |publisher=Routledge |series=Routledge Contemporary South Asia Series |pages=91–115, 106 |year=2021 |isbn=9781000318845 |chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=K20LEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA91 |quote=Beginning in January 1990, such large numbers of Kashmiri Pandits – the community of Hindus native to the valley of Kashmir – left their homeland and so precipitously that some have termed their departure an exodus. Indeed, within a few months, nearly 100,000 of the 140,000-strong community had left for neighboring Jammu, Delhi, and other parts of India. An insignificant number have returned.}}

• If anyone has any concerns, please discuss them here RogerYg (talk) 09:57, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

:Jackson never says that medieval Muslim rulers were persecuting Hindus. TrangaBellam (talk) 11:05, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

::Well, Peter Jackson has mentioned (on the cited pages) that the Muslim historians of the medieval era viewed the creation and expansion of Islamic Sultanates in Hindustan as "holy war" and a religious conquest, characterizing Muslim forces as "the army of Islam" and the Hindus as infidels. Though, you may be right that Jackson's opinion was that these claims are exaggerated. RogerYg (talk) 04:09, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

::: I agree that Jackson's reference alone may not be sufficient in the lead, and I can add several other more relevant references, such as Durant, who has called the Muslim conquest of India "probably the bloodiest story in history". RogerYg (talk) 04:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

{{Reflist}}

The Cleanup reorganize|date=January 2020 notice has been up since 2020. The article layout has since been imrpoved and I think this notice should be removed RogerYg (talk) 09:59, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected|Persecution of Hindus|answered=yes}}

In "Bangladesh" section, please do the following.

; Action-1:

Replace the existing "see also" navigation template with the following two templates

{{See also| Human rights in Bangladesh#Non| l1= Persecution of Hindus & non-muslims in Bangladesh | Malaun | Bangladesh Genocide | List of massacres in Bangladesh| Freedom of religion in Bangladesh}}

-- Added Freedom of religion in Bangladesh & Bangladesh Genocide as they are a direct relevant link, other links are sub-headings & aliases that may not be needed and even may be confusing RogerYg (talk) 04:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

{{Violence against Hindus in East Pakistan and Bangladesh}}

• DONE unless argued otherwise. Please provide more relevant reasons if you re-raise the request RogerYg

; Action-2:

Malaun (from arabic for "accursed") is a pejorative term for Bengali Hindus, most commonly used in Bangladesh by Bengali Muslims.{{cite book |last=Roy |first=Tathagata |title=My People, Uprooted |year=2002 |publisher=Ratna Prakashan |location=Kolkata |isbn=81-85709-67-X |page=18}}{{cite web |url=http://www.uscirf.gov/component/content/article/290/2318.html |title=Bangladesh: The Upcoming National Elections, Pluralism, Tolerance and the Plight of Hindu and Non-Muslim Minority - Need a New Direction |last=Dastidar |first=Sachi |date=12 April 2008 |work=Bangladesh: Religious Freedom, Extremism, Security, and the Upcoming National Elections |publisher=United States Commission on International Religious Freedom |access-date=13 September 2013 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130828234152/http://uscirf.gov/component/content/article/290/2318.html |archive-date=28 August 2013 |url-status=dead }}{{cite web |url=http://hrcbm.org/news/HRCBM_UA_091202.pdf |title=Minorities Fear for Life and Security |date=12 September 2002 |publisher=HRCBM |access-date=16 October 2013}}{{cite news |url=http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/column-the-unholy-killings-of-avijit-roy-and-govind-pansare-2065974 |title=The unholy killings of Avijit Roy and Govind Pansare |last=Chatterjee |first=Garga |date=4 March 2015 |work=Daily News and Analysis |access-date=9 March 2015}} Percentage of Muslims is continuously rising, while all non-muslim minorities have been continuously decreasing rapidly in Bangladesh due to various reasons including persecution, genocide, ethnic cleansing and rapes. Since 1951, Hindu population decreased by 15.1% in 71 years, and during the same period Muslim population increased by exactly by the same 15.1% (76% to 91.1%). Percentage of Hindus declined more than two third (over 67% drop) in 71 years, i.e. from 22% of total population of Bangladesh in 1951 to 13.5% in 1974 (8.5% decrease in 20 years),{{cite web |url=http://hrcbmdfw.org/files/22/population_data/entry489.aspx |title=Bangladesh- Population census 1991: Religious Composition 1901–1991 |date=2 August 2016 |website=Bangladeshgov.org |access-date=2 August 2016 |archive-date=18 August 2016 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160818162638/http://hrcbmdfw.org/files/22/population_data/entry489.aspx |url-status=dead }} and then to drop again to 6.9% in 2022 (further 1.6% decrease).{{Cite web |date=August 2022 |title=Population and Housing Census 2022 Preliminary Report |url=https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T0uDswlsJxK3RuBbFZrdecFLIkjCT4UA/view?usp=embed_facebook |access-date=2022-10-08 |website=Bangladesh Bureau of Statistics |archive-date=8 October 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221008215051/https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T0uDswlsJxK3RuBbFZrdecFLIkjCT4UA/view?usp=embed_facebook |url-status=live }} Hindus and others have been regularly and systematically persecuted, such as during the Bangladesh genocide, Bangladesh Liberation War and numerous recurring massacres of civilians{{Cite news |date=14 June 2015 |title=Forkan Razakar's verdict any day |work=Dhaka Tribune |url=https://www.dhakatribune.com/uncategorized/2015/06/14/forkan-razakars-verdict-any-day}}{{Cite web |date=25 March 2016 |title=Why is the mass sexualized violence of Bangladesh's Liberation War being ignored? |url=https://womenintheworld.com/2016/03/25/why-is-the-mass-sexualized-violence-of-bangladeshs-liberation-war-being-ignored/ |publisher=Women In The World}}{{Cite web |title=Discovery of numerous Mass Graves, Various types of torture on Women" and "People's Attitude |url=https://www.kean.edu/~bgsg/Conference09/Papers_and_Presentations/MA_Hasan_Paper_Discovery%20of%20numerous%20Mass%20Graves,%20Various%20types.pdf |publisher=kean.edu}}{{Cite web |title=Crimes Against Humanity in Bangladesh |url=https://scholar.smu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3945&context=til |publisher=scholar.smu.edu}}{{cite news |date=25 March 2010 |title=Bangladesh war: The article that changed history |work=BBC News |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-16207201}}White, Matthew, [http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm#Bangladesh Death Tolls for the Major Wars and Atrocities of the Twentieth Century]{{Cite web |title=First Razakar camp in Khulna turns into ghost house after Liberation War

|url=https://www.observerbd.com/2015/12/30/128351.php |access-date=2023-04-26 |website=www.observerbd.com}} where rapes is also used as weapon.{{cite journal |last=Sharlach |first=Lisa |year=2000 |title=Rape as Genocide: Bangladesh, the Former Yugoslavia, and Rwanda |journal=New Political Science |volume=22 |issue=1 |pages=92–93 |doi=10.1080/713687893 |s2cid=144966485}}{{cite book |last=Sajjad |first=Tazreena |title=Plight and Fate of Women During and Following Genocide |publisher=Transaction Publishers |year=2012 |isbn=978-1-4128-4759-9 |editor-last=Totten |editor-first=Samuel |editor-link=Samuel Totten |pages=225 |chapter=The Post-Genocidal Period and its Impact on Women |orig-year=First published 2009}} Active perpetrators of genocide, ethnic cleansing and rapes of Hindus in Bangladesh include the Pakistani Military, Al Badr,{{cite web|last1=Mamoon|first1=Muntassir|title=Al-Badr|url=http://en.banglapedia.org/index.php?title=Al-Badr|website=Banglapedia|publisher=Bangladesh Asiatic Society|access-date=4 September 2016}}{{cite book |last1=Sisson |first1=Richard |last2=Rose |first2=Leo E. |date=1991 |title=War and Secession: Pakistan, India, and the Creation of Bangladesh |publisher=University of California Press |page=165 |isbn=978-0-520-07665-5}} Al Sham,{{cite web|url=https://lubpak.com/archives/42543|title=Pakistan's first two militant Islamist groups, Al-Badar and Al-Shams – by Nadeem F. Paracha|work=LUBP|access-date=29 December 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151227153530/https://lubpak.com/archives/42543|archive-date=27 December 2015|url-status=dead}} East Pakistan Central Peace Committee,{{cite book |last=Karlekar |first=Hiranmay |date=2005 |title=Bangladesh: The Next Afghanistan? |url=https://archive.org/details/bangladeshnextaf0000karl |url-access=registration |publisher=SAGE |page=149 |isbn=978-0-7619-3401-1}} Razakars,{{Cite news |url=https://www.thedailystar.net/frontpage/the-list-of-10789-razakars-published-1840843 |title=Govt publishes list of Razakars |date=16 December 2019 |work=The Daily Star}} Muslim League, Jamaat-e-Islami, and the Urdu-speaking Biharis.{{cite news |first=Peter R. |last=Kann |date=27 July 1971 |title=East Pakistan Is Seen Gaining Independence, But It Will Take Years |newspaper=The Wall Street Journal}}

Thank you.

119.74.238.54 (talk) 10:02, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

-- Included the part directly relevant to Hindu persecution ie. the declining numbers.

• Can be considered DONE unless argued otherwise. RogerYg (talk) 04:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

{{Reflist}}

The sub-title India is very vague. It follows the Medieval India, and British India; and refers to post-Independence India.

Therefore, the appropriate subtitle is: Post-Independence India. If anyone has any issue with that you may discuss here. RogerYg (talk) 11:36, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

False history of Aurangzeb is seems to be added in Wikipedia,must be corrected by any impartial historian to maintain credibility of Wikipedia 223.233.83.104 (talk) 02:52, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

There is little clarity and flow in this section, in my view.

As an example:

{{cquote|While there is a tendency to view the Muslim conquests and Muslim empires as a prolonged period of violence against Hindu culture, Durant called the Muslim conquest of India "probably the bloodiest story in history" in between the periods of wars and conquests, there were harmonious Hindu-Muslim relations in most Indian communities, and the Indian population grew during the medieval Muslim times. No populations were expelled based on their religion by either the Muslim or Hindu kings, nor were attempts made to annihilate a specific religion.}}

It says "While there is" which suggests the claim is more disputed than it might appear. Then it gives a historian who in fact agrees with the claim that it's the bloodiest in history. But then it ends with the a citation that disputes that particular claim.

The succeeding paragraphs are similar, with over-quotations of Romila Thapar's point of view, which have little to do with historical facts. As an example, the quotation of upper caste Hindus being lumped together with lower caste Hindus, and their perception of history and persecution as a result. This could be put into a different section if needed, but as an example, the historian Durant is not an "upper caste Hindu", and there are many other western Indologists quoted throughout the article which reduce Thapar's claim to more of a viewpoint epistemology than factual.

This is yet another quotation from the opening paragraphs:

{{cquote|She questions what persecution means, and if it means religious conversions, she doubts that conversions can be interpreted as forms of persecution. According to Thapar, it is quite correct to mention that Muslim iconoclasts destroyed temples and the broke images of Hindus but it should also be mentioned that Muslim rulers made donations to Hindu sects during their rule.}}

The article, specifically, is about Hindu persecution. Why does it need to be mentioned in the introductory paragraphs that Muslim donations were also made to Hindu sects? It does not invalidate Hindu persecution at their hands. And why does the question of "what persecution means" need to be mentioned when there are many factual claims in the proceeding paragraphs?

I'm writing this to point out that there's been clear edit warring going on, based on politics. I'd like this section to be edited with consensus, and the points of view can be moved to a later section. Indosociology111 (talk) 09:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

:I've also changed the claim that "Hindutva allies" dub it a Hindu holocaust, when the sources had only one journalist who said so. This isn't the place for proving your political point. Not all claims about Hindu persecution are coming from "Hindutva allies", and there's an equal amount of misinformation from the "other side", if I may. Indosociology111 (talk) 09:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC)