Template:Did you know nominations/2023 Robinson–Sullivan tornado

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{{DYK nompage links|nompage=2023 Robinson–Sullivan tornado|2023 Robinson–Sullivan tornado}}

{{main page image/DYK|image=March 31, 2023, tornado damage in Sullivan, Indiana.jpg|caption=Damaged homes after the 2023 Robinson–Sullivan tornado}}

~~... that a tornado in the Midwestern United States dissipated near Palestine?~~

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Source: https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/wx/afos/p.php?pil=PNSILX&e=202304021740}}
ALT1: ... that in the aftermath of the 2023 Robinson–Sullivan tornado (pictured), Sullivan, Indiana was "like a war zone"? Source: https://sullivancountyready.org/
Reviewed:
Comment: The image would be used for the alternative hook.

{{smalldiv|1=Improved to Good Article status by {{user0|EF5}}.

Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.}}

7kk (talk) 18:47, 30 March 2025 (UTC).

16px I'm guessing you're new to DYK, but for the record, you should probably inform the creator / improving editor that got the article eligible for DYK - in this case, {{ping|EF5}}. We could extend this a few hours past the 7-day limit for DYK, given the GA nomination on March 23, but neither of the hooks seem to me to pass WP:DYKINT - tornado damage is quite often compared to "like a war zone" - and I don't think having only two hooks, one referencing Palestine and another referencing destruction is the best taste. I'm nearly certain the original hook meant to say "formed near" instead of dissipated - Palestine is, yes, both a relatively common place name and a literal geographic place, but the tornado dissipated near Sullivan. Both sources are inadequate to my liking - the first was likely an April 1 hook and the ship has sailed on that, and the second is a primary source and should be attributed as such. I'll ask you to come up with some better hooks before I consider doing a full review. Departure– (talk) 17:41, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

::As creator and GA improver, I’m fine with a DYK nom, but please give me time to suggest a better hook; I particularly don’t like the Palestine mention which just pokes fun at a town name. E_F⁵ 18:52, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

:::{{ping|EF5}} It's been over three weeks; do you have any interest in continuing this nomination? Note that it won't count against your current QPQ status either way. 7kk, who opened this, removed any mention of it from their talk page, so it's safe to say they're not interested. There's nothing wrong with not doing anything, you weren't intending on bringing this here and the person who brought it here doesn't seem to have any interest in it either. Departure– (talk) 18:37, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Hm. If you don't mind, could I get other examples of tornado disaster sites being referred to as "war zones"? I personally think that meets WP:DYKINT. E_F⁵ 18:46, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::{{ping|EF5}} Within the last four years: [https://www.wave3.com/2021/12/18/iraq-war-veteran-describes-tornado-damage-warzone/ December 10, 2021 (unspecified, likely Mayfield EF4): "The destruction of the Western Kentucky tornadoes has been described as "a warzone"",] [https://www.kark.com/severe-weather-coverage/it-was-like-a-warzone-little-rock-businesses-devastated-after-tornado/ Little Rock, Arkansas EF3: "It was like a warzone"], [https://www.romesentinel.com/news/some-kind-of-warzone-romans-in-shock-after-storm-hits-city/article_2c93f08e-43cd-11ef-90f0-43ef22eaac3f.html Rome, New York EF2: "It looked like just some kind of war zone"], [https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2023/08/its-like-a-warzone-cleanup-efforts-underway-after-ef-1-tornado-rips-up-buildings-trees-in-perry.html Perry, Texas EF1: "It’s like a warzone"]. Also, the Lemont, Illinois F4 had it in storm data, and we're basing the hook off of the Sullivan, Indiana one. Clearly it doesn't mean much. Departure– (talk) 18:55, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::Darn. Hm... [https://www.weather.gov/ilx/UpdatedRobinsonTOR that in November 2023, weather enthusiasts alerted the National Weather Service that the agency missed tornado damage during a Tornado damage survey of the 2023 Robinson–Sullivan tornado]? Ignore formatting. I can come up with better, this is just off-the-bat. E_F⁵ 19:02, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Well, if you want to add that to the article, might I suggest some variant of...~~{{blockquote|... that "weather enthusiasts" drew attention to an additional {{cvt|.66|mi|km}} of a 2023 tornado's path that had gone unsurveyed?}}~~ Departure– (talk) 19:08, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Sure. The length doesn't matter, it's the fact that it was nearly a year after. E_F⁵ 19:12, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::{{ping|EF5}} Let me know when you've added and cited that, and I'll approve it. Departure– (talk) 19:42, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:{{ping|EF5}} It's been another two weeks, are you going to be adding that claim? That's all you need to do for me to approve this. Also, what do you think of [https://www.mywabashvalley.com/news/weather-news/aerial-photos-of-ground-scouring-from-march-31-tornado/ this?] I'd add it myself but that's a bit of COI, seeing as I'm the one doing this DYK. Departure– (talk) 19:44, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{ping|Departure–}} Holy crap, that's some of the craziest cycloidal marking I've ever seen! Added the claim. ^EF⁵ 13:59, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:::16px From there, no issues with the article, and nothing major has changed since my first check. Good to go! Departure– (talk) 23:06, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

16px The nomination has been pulled per a WT:DYK discussion. Given DYKINT concerns as well as objections by those involved, both the promoted hook (the "war zone" hook) and the editors' preferred hook (the "weather enthusiasts" hook) have been struck. A new, compromise hook is needed here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:44, 12 May 2025 (UTC)
In addition, given that Departure also specializes in weather-related articles, and how one of the main concerns raised at WT:DYK was regarding broad or non-specialist interestingness, it would probably best for a third-party editor (probably one detached from weather-related topics) to be the one to give approval to whatever new hook is proposed now. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:48, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:*{{ping|EF5}} Do you have any interest in continuing this DYK? You mentioned withdrawing before and since the general eyre of the DYK team doesn't think either current hook is going to work, we'd need another - if you withdraw, you can save your precious time and spend it somewhere else - not like you spent a QPQ on this. If so, I'll defer this to the original nominator, and if they don't respond in a week, I'll reject this. Let me know if you're still interested. Departure– (talk) 14:05, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Sorry, just a bit frusturated. Once I finish up Draft:2020 Jonesboro tornado I'll come up with something; if that's rejected I'll just withdraw. ^EF⁵ 14:26, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::{{ping|EF5|Departure–}} One possible option could be to agree to ALT1 since it seemed like the non-tornado specialists on DYK thought it was an okay hook. Would you be open to agreeing to ALT1 if it was the only way for the article to gain consensus to run? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:30, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::My main problem with that hook is that, as I brought up, it's a description from a non-expert (in fact, in this case, from an apparent primary source - Sullivan-area tornado recovery), and numerous other tornadoes, including many that themselves aren't notable enough for an article, are described the same way every year. Departure– (talk) 14:37, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::{{ping|Departure–}} Well, if you and EF5 are unwilling to agree that hook and are unable to provide a suitable alternative, then there is no path forward for this nomination. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:47, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Alright then, pinging {{ping|7kk}} Would you like to pick up this nomination again? Me and EF5 haven't been able to come up with a hook and are going to defer this to you as the original nominator. Departure– (talk) 14:52, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I'm fine with the "war zone" hook, tornado damage isn't usually called that. Give me at least a few hours to suggest a Cycloidal marks-related hook, however, assuming Departure won't change their mind. ^EF⁵ 14:58, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::I'll also add that I said {{tq|I'll come up with something}} less than an hour ago, was that missed? ^EF⁵ 15:02, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::{{ping|EF5}} I found [https://www.ridects.com/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=2967 a good quote] from the city of Clarksville, Tennessee on this - "The term, 'war zone' is often overused in events such as this". Clarksville has hit by only an EF2 tornado, and I've seen it also used multiple times on EF1 tornado. It's a common term to the point city officials are noting the term's apparent overuse - even if it is always accurate to some degree. My issue with using it in this case is that it can be used to describe the damage of almost any tornado - [https://www.thv11.com/article/news/jonesboro-community-counts-their-blessings-after-a-violent-tornado-ripped-through-their-city/91-3611d78d-c6a8-4e34-b692-8e92105a3be5 hell, even the one you're working on now]. Since this term can be used on almost any tornado, having it as a hook here means it's likely to be overused as a hook in the future, which isn't helping the "formulaic nature" another DYK official brought up in WT:DYK for tornado articles. No prejudice against finding another hook fact - that's probably the best way to go forward on this nomination. Departure– (talk) 15:05, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Yay. Please give me a day to come up with something else, nowhere did I say that I was "unable to provide a suitable alternative". ^EF⁵ 15:07, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::Take your time. Sorry, things are moving so quickly on this and I've gotten a lot of edit conflicts so it's been hard to keep straight what the current mood is. Departure– (talk) 15:08, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::You're right, things are moving so fast that people are jumping to assume I've just given up on the whole thing. Partially true, since I faux pull !voted out of frustration, but all I need's a bit of time to suggest something. ^EF⁵ 15:12, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

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