Template:Did you know nominations/Barad, Syria

{{DYK nompage links|nompage=Barad, Syria|Barad, Syria}}

• ... that the ancient Church of Julianos in the village of Barad, one of the Dead Cities of Syria, is distinguished by the precision of its dimensions and its several entrances?
• Reviewed: Loring Air Force Base Double Cantilever Hanger

Created/expanded by Al Ameer son (talk), Zozo2kx (talk). Nominated by Al Ameer son (talk) at 06:18, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

:*

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Comment: Two problems. I write about architecture all the time, but the statement "precision of its dimensions" was anything but clear! I wondered what it meant. If a building is enormous, (the Great Pyramids for example) then precise dimensions are significant. I also wondered what you meant, in the article by the "backyard". So I tracked down the relevant source and discovered that the author you have referenced used the word "courtyard". "Courtyard" and "backyard" are not interchangeable. The "backyard" is a place where you keep the clothesline, the dog and compost heap. So, like the "backyard/courtyard" thing, you had transcribed the author's words from "proportions" to "dimensions". The author had stated that the building was notable for its fine proportions rather than for decoration. (i.e. carved stonework) The difference is that "dimensions" refers to size. Precise dimensions would mean that the building measured exactly the same on both sides (for example). "Proportions" are another thing entirely. Proportion in architecture isn't so much about how things measure as how they look. It is about whetehr the door looks the right height for its width, and whether the windows look the right height for the door and whether they are nicely positioned in the walls. You can't use the word "dimensions" when it is "proportions" that are being written about. So, until this is sorted out, I can't support it. I would look for a different hook entirely, because if you, as the author of the article, don't fully grasp the meaning, then neither will the readers. Amandajm (talk) 18:07, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

:I think the idea of the hook is fine, but it should be tweaked for accuracy. I also think the intention of those word replacements was to avoid any hints of plagiarism, although as you imply, some words are just not replaceable. I'm not an architecture wiz and I don't think Zozo is either, but we've edited plenty of architecture articles, most of them on religious buildings. I'll make the necessary edits to the hook and the article and update you on the progress. Thank you. --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:48, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

::No, it's a poor hook, because you have misinterpreted what your source said. The source said "The attractiveness of the church lies in the precision of its proportions rather than in any elaborate treatment of the squared ashlar blocks of which it is composed."

::The author doesn't say that the church is "distinguished by" its proportions. He comments that this is the feature of the church that makes it attractive. To say that it is "distinguished by" its proportions lifts that factor to a different level entirely.

::My advice is, scrap that hook because it relies upon you misinterpreting the text.

::That bit of the text does give you valuable information. What is says is: "According to Robert Milburn, the attractiveness of the church lies in the precision of its proportions."

::Alternately: "The church is built of ashlar masonry, and has little decoration, but fine proportions."

::You could use as a hook the fact that it has an extraordinary number of doors. That is sufficient.

::Amandajm (talk) 06:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

:::How about this?

:::ALT1: ... that the Church of Julianos in the village of Barad in northern Syria, was one of two churches in the Dead Cities to have a three-aisle basilica to accommodate large congregations? Yazan (talk) 05:56, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

::::Better, but it the church did not have a three-aisled basilica. The church was (or is) a three-aisled basilica. You could say that the village of Barad had a three-aisled basilica.

::::Can I suggest that you go to the page Basilica and check the meanings. The way in which this word is being used is the "architectural" sense, not the sense of papal ordination.

::::Amandajm (talk) 03:53, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

:::::Point taken, how about, ALT2: ... that the Church of Julianos (pictured) in the village of Barad in northern Syria, was one of two three-aisled basilicas in the Dead Cities? Yazan (talk) 04:11, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Next round

Comment

• Of the seven churches that were built in northern Syria before 400 CE, the Church of Julianos was one of two to have a three-aisle—a nave and two side aisles divided by rows of eight columns—basilica to accommodate large congregations.[8]

: This is an appallingly clumsy sentence.

:The hyphenated word "three-aisle" should be the adjectival form "three-aisled". The word "basilica" ought to follow immediately.

:You simply can't write a sentence that goes : ... the Church of Julianos was one of two to have a three-aisle—waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle—basilica to accommodate large congregations.[8]

:The adjective "three-aisled" and the noun "basilica" must go together.

: READ IT OUT LOUD.

• Secondly, you can't jamb an extensive explanation like that between dashes. If you are going to explain a term without using the words "This means...." then you need to use brackets not dashes.
• And I am going to repeat this from my last round of comments:

::The author doesn't say that the church is "distinguished by" its proportions. He comments that this is the feature of the church that makes it attractive. To say that it is "distinguished by" its proportions lifts that factor to a different level entirely.

::Moreover, he qualifies the statement by saying that the "attractiveness lies in the proportions, not the details.

::If you want to avoid repeating exactly what is in the book, drop "precision" but keep "proportions". Its fine to say that the "attractiveness" or "architectural quality" or "beauty" of the church lies in its proportions. The word "precision" adds nothing. In fact, I'm having difficulty comprehending what the author meant by the "precision" of the proportions!

::Amandajm (talk) 08:48, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

:::I've tried to allay your concerns by re-distributing some parts of the section, and rewriting the other part. How does it look like now? Yazan (talk) 05:07, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• 16px New reviewer needed; previous one has not responded to talk page request. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:22, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• 16px ALT 2 and image Let's see. While the nomination was technically nominated too late by a matter of minutes, i'm willing to allow such a close time frame to pass. The prose length sits at 2184 characters, so comfortably within the size limit. It reads neutrally, has proper inline citations, and doesn't appear to be plagiarism. As for the hook on ALT 2, it is 127 characters, so within the 200 characters limit. It's an interesting enough hook,has an inline citation directly for it, and is obviously neutral. You've done a QPQ review. As for the image, it's public domain, used in the image, and shows up decently well at the 100x100 size. Looks like everything is good to go, unless previous reviewer Amandajm returns with any more concerns. Silverseren^C 03:54, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

:*Just to be on the safe side, I'm striking the original and ALT1 hooks due to problems noted in the reviews at the time. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:53, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

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