User:DVQuebec/Draft:Pichenotte
Sept 29 2020
To the Editors SMcCandlish, David notMD, and others:
Here is a rather long introduction for my suggested revisions to the entry for PICHENOTTE.
There are two main varirations of the game of PICHENOTTE, square and round, and I believe it is accurate and helpful to include
other variations of the game and uses of the word. I know almost nothing about the square version of the game, although I briefly owned one,
and I find it odd that there are no references or citations about it.
I have reached out to the representatives of the square game, both FQJR (Federation Quebec de Jeux Recreations http://www.quebecjeux.org/portfolio/pichenottes/
and AJQP Association de Jeux Quebec aux Pichenotte http://pichenottes.quebecjeux.org/fr/http://pichenottes.quebecjeux.org/fr/ in Quebec about
their games and rules and inquired aboutg who makes them, but they have never replied to my phone calls or emails.
Following the introduction are my references and citations.
As I have mentioned, I have a hobby making the round version of pichenotte boards since 1997.
My Quebec grandfather made a round pichenotte board in 1926 that we still have.
My Quebec relatives and friends all refer the both the round and square board as pichenotte.
Perhaps there could be separate entries?
Round Pichenotte
Square Pichenotte
Millions of people play the square version and love it. Main object is shooting for the 4 corners
Millions of people play the round version and love it. Main object is shooting for the center hole.
By the way, I am very good friends with a large number of crokinole makers in Canada including
The Crokinole Depot http://www.crokinoledepot.com/home.html
Mr Crokinole https://crokinole.com/
Crokinole Canada https://crokinole.ca/
Crokinole GameBoards https://www.crokinolegameboards.com/
World Crokinole Championships http://www.worldcrokinole.com/ which we attended in 1999.
See
I am internet friends with the maker of pitchnut.https://pitchnut.com/#
Pitchnut (TM) is most likely an anglicized form of pichenotte
Surely, someone can find a better suggestion for obtaining a square boards than Pinnochi , a company that seems
to be out of business. I don't know of any companies, other than carrom companies. There must be high quality square boards
other than 'carrom' boards, but I don't know of any at this point.
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1) What millions of Quebec residents know, is that the word pichenotte refers to many games involving a flicking action.
They use the word instead of carroms, crokinole, and croquignole.
They play pichenotte hockey, pichenotte football, and when they flick each other on the nose or the head, they say they
they are giving a pichenotte. Pichenotte is a common name for animal pets such as dogs, cats, and birds.
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2) The current entry for pichenotte states:
"The term is sometimes also mistakenly used as the actual name of other games of this class, such as carrom and crokinole."
Who or what is the authority to be cited ? Who is pronouncing this judgement ? and to what purpose ?
3) The current entry for pichenotte states:
"While the specifics are uncertain, pichenotte certainly must have originated from the Indian game carrom.
In the mid-19th century, carrom was likely brought to Canada by Indian or British immigrants."
Rather than say 'it must have' without any reference or citation, it could be stated more correctly that 'perhaps' pichenotte originated from
the Indian game of carrom.
4) The current entry for pichenotte states:
" Another variant of the game called pitchnut" the reference would be here https://pitchnut.com/#
5) I suggest that the first line should give a translation of the French word, not launch into a definitive statement with no reference.
Pichenotte is an Old French word meaning Flick. It is hard to find the word in any current printed French dictionary. I have looked extensively
at loca libraries. Most often Pichenette is found, from which the word pichenotte evolved.
Now, to the game of Crokinole. (Not that I want to start arguments with Crokinole players, but let's look at the word and the origins.
From The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kelly First Edition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crokinole
"Origins of the name''
The name "crokinole" derives from croquignole, a French word today designating: in France, a kind of cookie (or biscuit in British English),[9] similar to a biscotto; in French Canada, a pastry somewhat similar to a doughnut (except for the shape).[11]
It also used to designate the action of flicking with the finger (Molière, Le malade imaginaire; or Voltaire, Lettre à Frédéric II Roi de Prusse; etc.),
and this seems the most likely origin of the name of the game. Croquignole was also a synonym of pichenotte, a word that gave its name to the different but related games of pichenotte and pitchnut. Crokinole is called knipsbrat ('flick-board') (and occasionally knipsdesh (flick-table)) in the Plautdietsch spoken by Russian Mennonites."
ThreeVictors: So, it seems there is general consensus that CROKINOLE derived from the French word CROQUIGNOLE.
In the 'The Crokinole Book' First Edition Wayne Kelly https://crokinole.com/index.php/products/states in
page 22
"The earliest American crokinole board and reference to the game is M.B. Ross's patented New York board of 1880. The earliest Canadian reference (cite: Sports and Games in Canadian Life: 1700 to the Present by Howell and Howell, Toronto, MacMillan Company of Canada, 1969, p.61) which simply states that 'crokinole was a popular pastime in Canada from 1867 to onward'"
Could Eckhardt Wettlaufer visited friends in New York state, noticed an unusual and entertaining parlour game being played, and upon arrival home, made an imitation as a gift for his son ? ... Or was it the other way around ? Did M. B. Ross travel to Ontario, take note of a quaint piece of rural folk art, and upon return to New York, put his American entrepreneurial skills to work - complete with patent name - on his new crokinole board ? " As the trail is more than 100 years old and no other authoritative source can be found, it appears, at the moment, that Eckhardt Wettlaufer or M.B. Ross are as close as we can get to answering the question of WHO."
ThreeVictors adds:
Could it be that Eckhardt or Ross, instead of traveling and meeting each other so far away, both happened to travel to Quebec, saw Croquignole being played there and Anglicized the word to 'Crokinole' ? Seems possible. Maybe details will emerge over time. Maybe not.
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Kelly also states on page 21 of First Edition of The Crokinole Book https://crokinole.com/index.php/products/
" It is outstanding unusual that, in an age when countless trillions of words have been cranked off the press concerning subjects....next to nothing has been written about a highly popular social activity such as crokinole".
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Kelly also states on page 22 of The Crokinole Book https://crokinole.com/index.php/products/
" ...with regard to all responses and photographs received from museums, archives, historical societies and individuals polled from coast to coast....none added information as to the origin of the game."
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The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kelly ISBN: 0-919783-83-X
Third Edition: ( spiral bound)
https://crokinole.com/index.php/products/
pg 41
"Similar to the search for crokinole history, a surprising lack of information about the game of carrom was positively the rule back in 1987 - at least here in North America. Happily, that void is now being addressed by several diligent researchers, historians, and game afficianados."
pg 49
" Great variety has existed in the size, shape and weight of the simple crokinole board."
"The early octagonal boards (my personal favorite) weighed close to 11 pounds..."
" Round boards, too, have had great popularity." " Round boards have the tendency to show up in specific geographic regions....in Waterloo and Wellington counties of Ontario and in various communities across Quebec"
pg 59
" The designs and dimensions of crokinole boards seems as varied as the men who turned a hand at making them".
ThreeVictors adds: Surely, Crokinole players the world over, owe a great debt of gratitude to Wayne Kelly, now deceased https://worldcrokinole.com/kelly.html although his son Caleb is carrying the torch as 'Son of Crokinole at www.crokinole.com
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MY SUGGESTED ADDITIONS, CHANGES AND REFERENCES/ CITATIONS FOR PICHENOTTE
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Pichenotte is a French word derived from pichenette which means 'flick'. https://www.wordsense.eu/pichenotte/ https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pichenotte
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Pichenotte is a United States Trademark https://www.pichenotte.com/pichenotte-trademark/ http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/
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The Quebec Museum of Civilisation https://www.mcq.org/en/ 'aka' Musee de la Civilisation de Quebec
https://www.mcq.org/en/ has two collection exhibits for the game of 'pichenotte'.
The round board at the Canadian Quebec Museum of Civilisation https://collections.mcq.org/objets/76963
The square board at the Canadian Quebec Museum of Civilisationhttps://collections.mcq.org/objets/81406
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THE ROUND GAME OF PICHENOTTE
The game can be played with two, three or four players. If four players, they can play as individuals or teams of two.
- On the round board, the playing surface is raised above the floor of the board and is surrounded by a ditch enclosed with an octagonal or round wall. The board is divided into four quadrants with three scoring zones made up of three concentric circles and one center hole. Eight posts, positioned equally around the innermost scoring circle line, surround the center hole. The object of the game is to knock your opponent's pucks from the board while keeping your own on the board.
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- The aim of the round game is to score as many points as possible, while limiting those of your opponent. At the end of play, all pucks left on the board are counted (according to their position in each of the three scoring zones) and added to any pucks that came to rest in the center hole (these are removed from the board). For a detailed description of the rules in New Mexico see:
Easy Rules https://www.pichenotte.com/pichenotte-rules/
Tournament Rules https://www.pichenotte.com/tournament-rules-dec-2018/
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The round game also has other names, which does cause confusion, such as:
French: Croquignole flick, biscuit, bun
English: Crokinole - Anglicized form of the French Croquignole
German: KnipsBrat - the flicking board http://knipsbrat.com/pichenotte.html
The word pichenotte is used liberally to describe other games that include the action of flicking.
Such as Pichenotte Hockey https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/246571/pichenotte-hockey
There seems to be no book references to the square game of pichenotte, however, there is an important
book about the round game aka crokinole called
The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kellyhttps://crokinole.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/book1-b.jpg
Publisher:
1st Edition: Boston Mills Press, Erin, Ontario, Canada
2nd Edition: Stoddart Publishing Co. Limited, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Revised Third Edition: Self Published by Wayne Kelly 1988, 1999, 2012
ISBN: 0-919783-83-X
1. Crokinole (game) I. Title
GV1312 K44 1988 794 C88-093933-8
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There are newspaper articles about pichenotte tournaments and events in Santa Fe, New Mexico:
1) Tavistock Gazette September 27, 2020
https://www.pichenotte.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Gazette_08_26_20_FINAL-5.pdf
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2) Santa Fe New Mexican October 27, 1998
http://www.pichenotte.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/border_100_mall_pdf_1.pdf
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3) Santa Fe New Mexican December 19, 1999
http://www.pichenotte.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/border_100_second_st_pdf_7.pdf
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4) The Albuquerque Journal August 10, 1999
http://www.pichenotte.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/border_100_albq_journ_jpg_2.pdf
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There are many webpages confirming the common knowledge that pichenotte also refers to the round game
https://www.picuki.com/tag/pichenottegame
https://www.picuki.com/media/1970147651362463394
https://www.picuki.com/media/1418510301346793730
https://www.picuki.com/media/1527995846694851666
https://www.picuki.com/media/1524870362437054634
https://www.picuki.com/media/945886142124624677
scroll to the end of this page http://www.worldcrokinole.com/photos2015.html
Let's look at some round pichenotte boards for sale on the web:
https://www.facebook.com/lejouetantique/photos/jeu-de-pichenotte-tout-fait-de-bois/1428302400753132/
https://www.varagesale.com/i/7hpwtwha-jeu-de-pichenotte
https://www.ebay.com/itm/193407221347?ViewItem=&item=193407221347
https://www.varagesale.com/i/rxwq6xve-crokinole-board-jeu-de-pichenotte
https://encanrivenord.hibid.com/lot/80051-103016-6198/jeu-de-pichenotte-vintage/
https://offerup.com/item/detail/854976201/
Let's look at some pichenotte tournament photos from New Mexico
https://www.pichenotte.com/photo-gallery-three/
Friend and Family Playing Pichenotte Photos
https://www.pichenotte.com/photo-gallery-three/
See also should include
www.pichenotte.com
{{cite book |last1=Kelly |first1=Wayne |title=The Crokinole Book (first edition) |publisher=Boston Mills |location=Erin, Ontoario, Canada |isbn=0-919783-83-X |url=https://crokinole.com/index.php/products/}}Book ReferencesBold text (even though no mention is made of Pichenotte)
The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kellyhttps://crokinole.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/book1-b.jpg
Publisher:
1st Edition: Boston Mills Press, Erin, Ontario, Canada
2nd Edition: Stoddart Publishing Co. Limited, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Revised Third Edition: Self Published by Wayne Kelly 1988, 1999, 2012
ISBN: 0-919783-83-X
1. Crokinole (game) I. Title
GV1312 K44 1988 794 C88-093933-
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Pichenotte is often used as a pet name for dogs or cats
https://www.picuki.com/profile/pichenotte_
https://www.picuki.com/profile/princesse_pichenotte
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ThreeVictors (talk) 10:15, 29 September 2020 (UTC)ThreeVictors (talk) 15:26, 29 September 2020 (UTC)ThreeVictors (talk) 15:33, 29 September 2020 (UTC)ThreeVictors (talk) 16:10, 29 September 2020 (UTC)ThreeVictors (talk) 16:14, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
ThreeVictors (talk) 16:28, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
::Greetings, and I would like to offer my opinion.
I think it best to delete the PICHENOTTE entry.
Although some of what is on there is correct, it is of very limited scope and limited value.
If a credible editor or team of editors can do some research and bring forth an accurate
and inclusive entry, it would be great. The current entry lacks citations and credibility.
AQJP seems a defunct and archived website and yet it is the only cited website and reference.
I hope that can change if a credible editor or group of editors researches the word and brings forth an accurate, useful and inclusive entry. Thanks. DVQuebec DVQuebec (talk) 15:10, 7 October 2020 (UTC)