User talk:Abecedare#Socks

Thank you, @Abecedare FascinatingStreet (talk) 00:11, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

• Commented at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:BigKrow&diff=prev&oldid=1293597156 BigKrow's talkpage]. Abecedare (talk) 16:42, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

With regards to cleaning up the pages [https://xtools.wmcloud.org/pages/en.wikipedia.org/LesIie/0 LesIie created], I'm in agreement with {{U|asilvering}} and {{U|Vanamonde93}} that PROD is the best approach. To started the ball rolling I've trimmed down William Harrison (brigadier) to what sources actually support (to make it clear to others that he's a footnote in the dustbin of history) and PRODed the resulting stub.

I'm not sure what the best way is to organize the PRODing of the rest, let alone how to tackle the rest of their edits. As with many sockpuppets, my impression is that not all of their edits were wrong, but sorting out the good from the bad could be time consuming. Have you organized cleanups of this sort before? What is your advice? --Worldbruce (talk) 13:53, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

:My advice is borrowed from the folks at WP:CCI: WP:PDEL the lot. Which is to say, PROD everything, rollback everything. Make sure you link the AE report when you do (hopefully this helps ward off well-meaning calls to AGF). -- asilvering (talk) 14:07, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

::I've done the rollback - just the easy ones, where a) the rollback script would work and b) LesIie wasn't the article creator. I don't think I missed any. Since anything left is already a bit more of a pain to remove than just pressing a button, I think the best way to handle it is to PROD everything, wait for those PRODs to expire, and then have a look at what's left in their contributions history to identify anything else that might need to go. -- asilvering (talk) 14:19, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

::{{reply|Worldbruce}} You have taken a deeper look at the editors' edits than my spot-check, but I agree with your assessment that their contribution (whether a result of their own efforts or LLMs) are a mix of (1) legitimate claims supported by the cited RS's, (2) claims not supported by the cited RS, and (3) fabricated sources. If LesIie had only been upfront about their LLM use etc when questioned at AE and listed the affected articles/edits, we would have been better positioned to retain the edits in the first category. But since that didn't happen, I believe the approach of mass roll-back and prods suggested by {{u|asilvering}} and {{u|Vanamonde93}} is the way to go.

::That should take care of the low-hanging fruit although it will still leave the problem posed by, for example, their [https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=LesIie+&page=Indo-Pakistani+war+of+1971&server=enwiki&max= 100+] edits to Indo-Pakistani war of 1971. Anyone know of a tool that can mark up the content in the current version of an article that was added by a specified user? Abecedare (talk) 19:22, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

:::There is the MediaWiki browser extension [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Who_Wrote_That%3F Who Wrote That?] It's a cool tool, but doesn't know whether something LesIie is credited with writing should be undone or was in fact an improvement. --Worldbruce (talk) 19:35, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Yes, I was thinking of that but what we need is it's converse, ie, a tool that marks up all the content that was contributed to the current version of (say) the article Indo-Pakistani war of 1971 by a specified user. That content and cited sources can then be examined for source misrepresentation/fabrication. The examination will still need to be done "manually" but is somewhat easier than checking the whole article for such issues. Abecedare (talk) 19:47, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::I see that [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Who_Wrote_That%3F Who Wrote That?] can "highlight all content by the same author" when one hovers over any content contributed by them. And since we know [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indo-Pakistani_war_of_1971&diff=1271841046&oldid=1268177253 some of the content] added by LesIie, the tool should make it easier to identify all the content they contributed. Will try my hand at it someone over the next day or two. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 19:52, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

• I have prodded ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Military_dictatorship_in_Pakistan&diff=1293811435&oldid=1292946322 eg]) the [https://xtools.wmcloud.org/pages/en.wikipedia.org/LesIie/0 remaing 17 articles] created by the user; They were the sole significant contributor to all these articles, with the other editors' contributions being mainly copyedits, adding categories and similar formatting and MOS fixes. Abecedare (talk) 20:38, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you. I added what I want to do on the Doomal Rajput talk page around 30 days ago, but I haven’t gotten any response. Just posting a reminder could you please reply? Thanks! HistoryofKashmir (talk) 15:56, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

:{{reply| HistoryofKashmir}} Done. See my note at the article talkpage for details. Abecedare (talk) 19:26, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

Here you have proposed the articles should get deleted as the author reportedly used LLM or AI. I have seen his other articles, some of them were truly poorly sourced. But these 2 are well documented, and similar articles like them on similar topic exists. Such as Military dictatorship in Brazil, Military dictatorship of Chile, Indo-Pakistani air war of 1965 𝗭𝗲𝗽𝗵𝘆𝗿 (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 15:36, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

I deprodded this article on behalf of a timid newbie. Bearian (talk) 16:10, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:{{reply|Bearian}} The editor who posted on your talk page had also participated in the AE discussion that led me to prod this and other articles created by the now blocked editor (see also the discussion above).

:{{reply|User:Lt.gen.zephyr}} do you object to the article being prodded on "soapbox" grounds or do you also object to the proposed deletion on the grounds that it potentially contains fabricated and misrepresented sources, possibly generated by an LLM? Abecedare (talk) 16:30, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::I have viewed maximum of thr articles created by him. I believe alot of them are poorly sourced, perhaps also generated by an LLM and yes contains some fabricated information with no neutral pov. But I think Pathankot airstrike, Battle of Kasur (1965), Military dictatorship in Pakistan and Indo-Pakistani air war of 1971 are well documented, along with having a neutral pov. I don't think these articles should get deleted along with the other articles with poor sources. Articles similar like this on same background exist in wikipedia. I believe at least these articles should not get deleted, rest may get as they fall under faulty articles. 𝗭𝗲𝗽𝗵𝘆𝗿 (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 16:37, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Pathankot airstrike & air war of 1971 are considered an important part of the respective wars. Even the neutral claim that the attack had been done, and India & pakistan both suffered good loses. Hence these 2 article is a good one and a part of history. I believe other articles created by the author don't have much notability, such as Dhaka defence scheme (adhoc). Articles like these created on a temporary topic dont have much widespread information, neither it is known to all. These articles may be redirected to parent article, or may be recreated. If allowed, I'll be happy to restrain the lesser notable articles with much better sources. 𝗭𝗲𝗽𝗵𝘆𝗿 (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 16:44, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::::{{reply|Lt.gen.zephyr}} These articles appear to be well-source at first glance, as was true for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_Harrison_(brigadier)&oldid=1293210750 William Harrison (brigadier)], and is generally true for LLM creations. If you or anyone else has checked that the cited sources exist and verify the content they are cited for, I personally would not object to the articles being retained. Barring that though, I believe the current articles should be deleted through WP:PROD or WP:AFD, and if their subject is notable (as is likely), recreated from scratch. Abecedare (talk) 16:43, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::I have checked the sources of all 4 articles mentioned above, and in my opinion they are good. If needed, Ill be happy to add more sources. 𝗭𝗲𝗽𝗵𝘆𝗿 (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 16:47, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::{{reply|Lt.gen.zephyr}} Have your checked whether the sources actually verify the content they are cited for? Abecedare (talk) 16:54, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::About military dictatorship, the bookish sources does exist, though the other sources's links dont seem to work. 𝗭𝗲𝗽𝗵𝘆𝗿 (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 16:59, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I went through sources of air war, and they seem to worked and yes, they cite the content. 𝗭𝗲𝗽𝗵𝘆𝗿 (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 17:05, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

• I went through the references of the military dictatorship article and none of the links seem to work. Looks highly suspect to me and I it best to delete it (or, at best, stub it for rewriting). RegentsPark (comment) 16:57, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

• Zephyr, you are welcome to de-prod any of the articles for which you believe my prod-reasoning does not apply and the particulars can be discussed at a future AFD. I plan to wait for at least a week before nominating the articles for deletion through AFD since by then we'll know which prods were contested.

: By the way, spot-checking Indo-Pakistani air war of 1971, I found claims unsupported by the cited sources. For example, the article says, {{tq|Early in the war, the IAF bombed Tejgaon and Kurmitola airbase on 4 December, effectively neutralizing PAF operations in East Pakistan.}} citing [https://web.archive.org/web/20070112032245/http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,878969,00.html this Time magazine article] (not sure why the [https://time.com/archive/6816675/the-world-bangladesh-out-of-war-a-nation-is-born/ correct direct link] was not provided), which afaict does not mention "Tejgaon" or "Kurmitola". The underlying claim may well be true but the sourcing is false, as often happens with LLMs. Abecedare (talk) 17:13, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks for waiting for a week. I'll go through Leslie's articles, and will try to fix them as much as I can. Just make sure his articles don't get deleted in the next 7 days, then we can do an AfD and discuss further. Don't archive this section in your talk page as well. 𝗭𝗲𝗽𝗵𝘆𝗿 (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 17:20, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:::No problem. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 17:26, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Hello there,

::::I am coming here after doing a significant change at Javed Hassan.

::::The previous version of the article had much unsourced information, and it sounded a bit pro-pakistani, breaching WP:NPOV. I have removed all the unsourced and poorly sourced information, and have added much better and reliable sources and I have tried to keep the tone as neutral as possible.

::::I believe this article should not get deleted. Some points about it -

::::1) The officer is a three star general, making him one of the top officers of the army.

::::2) He has Hilal-i-Imtiaz and Sitara-i-Imtiaz, these are respectively second and third highest award of Pakistan. A person who has been bestowed these two award is notable. Passes WP:NBIO

::::3) Backed by numerous sources such as DAWN, The Indian Express and The Friday Times which all are notable news platform - the officer was one of the 4 officers who were initially involved provoking the Kargil conflict. This makes him much notable, as he was one of the core members of the operation against India. Passes WP:GNG
The original author might have used an LLM to generate the article, as the previous version hardly had any good source. But this version is much better, and I believe you will also agree to the fact. 𝗭𝗲𝗽𝗵𝘆𝗿 (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 19:04, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Zephyr, thanks for your work at the Javed Hassan article. I haven't taken a careful look at your edits but if you believe that the potential sourcing and LLM issues have been resolved, then you can remove the prod template from the article, and perhaps add the above note to the article talkpage as an FYI for other editors interested in the topic (see WP:DEPROD for details). Such a process can also be undertaken at the other articles you mentioned previously.

::::: In a week or so I hope to take a look at the articles that LesIie created that remain undeleted to see if any obvious issues remain. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 19:40, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::Alright, I'll keep you updated here about other articles once I work on them. 𝗭𝗲𝗽𝗵𝘆𝗿 (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 19:43, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::Hey there, again here to bother you..

::::::I have revamped Pathankot airstrike, removed unsourced and excess information which do not go with WP:NPOV. I have also added some additional sources and remove sources which contradict itself.
Now I am facing a problem, I'd want your assistance to resolve. In the airstrike article, I have used 2 indian sources that claims IAF loses. One of them is pdf, another one is database, both of them are from same website of IAF. PDF says 2x mig, 6x mysteries, 1x gnat and 1x c-119 destroyed + 2x gnat and 1x mystere damaged. Another source of bharat rakhshak says - 6x mysteres, 2x hunter f56, 2x mig, 1x vampire.
These 2 source contradicts themselves, now which one should I use? 𝗭𝗲𝗽𝗵𝘆𝗿 (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 06:07, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::I have revamped some of Leslie's article, would love if you overview them. The statement of removing prod is attached along with (I have mentioned what edits I have done as well).

::::::1) Agha Humayun Amin - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Agha_Humayun_Amin#c-Lt.gen.zephyr-20250605192000-FYI]

::::::2) Pathankot airstrike - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pathankot_airstrike#c-Lt.gen.zephyr-20250606180300-FYI]

::::::3) Farrukh Bakht Ali - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Farrukh_Bakht_Ali#c-Lt.gen.zephyr-20250606190400-FYI]

::::::4) Indo-Pakistani air war of 1971 - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Indo-Pakistani_air_war_of_1971#c-Lt.gen.zephyr-20250606191000-FYI] 𝗭𝗲𝗽𝗵𝘆𝗿 (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 19:21, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Zephyr, military history is not really an area of knowledge or interest for me but I'll take a look at the articles over the weekend and let you know if I have any comments. Dropping notes at WT:MILHIST, WT:PAK and/or WT:INB may get you more informed input on the article content. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 20:40, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Alright, will be waiting for it. 𝗭𝗲𝗽𝗵𝘆𝗿 (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 07:16, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::: Sorry, got busier over the weekend than I expected. Will try to take a look at the pages soon. Abecedare (talk) 14:04, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::No worries, I have deprodded a few other articles as well : Babar Khan (officer), Commander of the Eastern Command (Pakistan) and Baqir Siddiqui. Would love if you see the talk.
However, I'd like to point out a few things.
1)The Agha Muhammad Ali Khan is a faulty article, with citing poor sources. Hardly any of the sources cite any information about the person, and he was not even Inspector General of west pakistan police and this should be deleted immediately.
2) The Dhaka defence scheme (adhoc) had no mention in the books the author has stated, nor in other sources. I believe this did not exist and must be deleted immediately.
3) William Harrison (brigadier)'s previous version was also faulty, citing almost nothing about him directly. I believe this should also get deleted immediately.
I'd appreciate if you overview them. 𝗭𝗲𝗽𝗵𝘆𝗿 (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 14:18, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

Hi, you protected Operation Sindoor due to repeated recreations without consensus. It was again recreated yesterday, one day after the protection expired, what should be done? Thanks a lot! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:59, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

:{{reply|Chaotic Enby}} The editor {{u|Navaneeth822}} has self-reverted and I have ECP'ed the redirect for a year. Abecedare (talk) 14:02, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks a lot! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 14:47, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

Hi Abecedare. I noticed you're an early user of my new script. It's been renamed to User:Daniel Quinlan/Scripts/Unfiltered.js and it's now documented too. Please update your common.js to use the new name. Thanks and let me know if you have any feedback! Daniel Quinlan (talk) 16:07, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:{{reply|Daniel Quinlan}} Updated. I installed the script on {{u|Asilvering}}'s recommendation and it certainly has made me more aware of users' filter logs, which I hardly ever remembered to check otherwise. Will let you know if I come across any issues or have any suggestions. Thanks for creating this tool. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 17:16, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

Good evening Abecedare. Sorry to bother you again.

Upon examination of this user Jamali287 it appears he has made disruptive edits disregarding the warning of discospinster, Referentis and violating WP:RS seemingly knowingly, as he had been specifically warned about this instance,he has also been blocked previously for 31 hours.

He has been making constant disruptive edits on S-400 page despite repeated reversions and warnings.

Please take requisite actions. AbhijnanGhosh87 (talk) 13:38, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:{{reply|AbhijnanGhosh87}} I have blocked the editor but note that tit-for-tat retorts such as [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jamali287&diff=prev&oldid=1295236144 the one here] are not helpful and can get one sanctioned for battleground conduct. Always better to focus on content and sources and use dispute resolution instead of getting into personalized debates. Hope you'll keep that in mind in the future. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 14:51, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::I apologise for any misconduct from my part. Will keep that in mind.Thank you for guiding me. AbhijnanGhosh87 (talk) 14:54, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Hello Abecedare.. I believe that the user {{noping|Pyaaz Kachori}} is violating the restriction you had imposed on Rajput. The user has earlier added the varna as Kshatriya obviously knowing that their varna status is disputed; I had reverted the edit; please see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rajput&diff=1295520145&oldid=1295502470 this]! Now, the user is reverting LukeEmily edits without any explanation! Please look into the revision history of the article! Best Regards. Ekdalian (talk) 08:48, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:{{reply|Ekdalian}} Thanks for the report. I have p-blocked the editor from the page for 3-months and reverted their recent edits; note that the latter action is simply procedural and not a comment on the edits' merits, which can be discussed on the article talkpage. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 11:02, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you for your prompt action. Best Regards. Ekdalian (talk) 12:12, 21 June 2025 (UTC)