You asked: "Raven; let me get this straight; you are saying that it isn't the policy that needs to be changed, but it is the religious beliefs THEMSELVES that are the problem and need to be changed. Is that correct?" • No; I expressed and intended no such imperative. I was speaking in the declarative voice, of "IS"s not "SHOULD"s. In logical-set terms, look at the set of all health insurance plans, run for colleges/universities, and for employers. Group in one subset those which cover contraception, and in another subset those which don't. Is there any doubt that overwhelmingly the second subset will pertain to colleges/universities and businesses which are owned by religious groups whose beliefs forbid contraception, and that this will be the reason for the policy exclusion? That is why I said, "'Beliefs' against the use of 'contraception' started the whole issue." That's the point of divergence. But my next sentence was: "As long as patients needing medication are at the mercy of what other people (not their physicians) choose to believe or not believe, such problems should be expected." Ah, there's a "should" -- the corollary being that people needing medication shouldn't be at the mercy of others' beliefs (besides their physicians'); patients' Freedom of Religion matters too, especially when their life and health depend on it. And no church's "Freedom of Religion" should extend to taking other people's away, as by withholding patients' medications against their will. But churches (and people) can believe whatever they will. – •Raven .talk 21:52, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
OK, so people can have whatever religious beliefs they want, they just can't act on them? The essence of a (in this case) Catholic University is being Catholic. It is run by a Religious Order, that specifically caters itself to a population that wishes to foster Catholic ideals and Catholic values. If you don't value those values, you have other choices. There are two complementary parts of the First Amendment (the 230 year old established way of dealing with conflicting interests), the Establishment clause, which says Government will not compel anyone to join a religion, and the Free Exercise clause, that says Religions are free to believe what they will without Government intervention. We are not arguing that the Catholic University should be able to interfere with what people do outside of the campus, but on whether a Catholic University should be forced by the Government to abandon its Catholic principles.--209.6.69.227 (talk) 02:56, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
- "OK, so people can have whatever religious beliefs they want, they just can't act on them?" -- How is this news to you? People can believe, and have in fact believed, that those of other religions than their own are all in service to the Devil, all scheme to destroy the lives and souls of the True Believers, and accordingly all deserve to die... as soon and as horribly as possible. Yes, they are free to have that belief. And no, they are not free to act on that belief by torturing and murdering their designated witch-hunt targets. That's been the state of US law for some time now. Having any wild range of beliefs is perfectly legal; but having those beliefs does not relieve one from obeying secular law. Nor does it entitle one to impose those beliefs upon others, for instance by denying them vital health care. If you have a heart attack while shopping at a store owned by a Christian Scientist, he can't refuse admission to the ambulance paramedics to treat you and take you to hospital, while he stands over you reciting the entire works of Mary Baker Eddy to heal you spiritually. Aren't you glad of that? – •Raven .talk 11:12, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
:[http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/sarahposner/5880/ Sarah Posner] discusses this same point more eloquently, so I commend her post. – •Raven .talk 17:09, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
::Hi, Raven;
::Religions do not have any law behind them to "impose" anything, and so do not have to be constrained. Government does, and therefore also does need to be constrained. The only recognized power religions have over people or people over religions is that of Free Association, which is why Constitutional cases usually cite both principles. If you choose to associate yourself with a religion or religious institution (in this case, Georgetown) you agree to abide by their rules; no-one compels you to do so. If you don't share those values, you cannot be forced not to leave and abide by them. I found Posner's arguments to be not very consistent. She cites a case where a group of students ELECTED to go to a State School with values, written into a code of behavior that they did not agree with. Just like Fluke, except Georgetown is private and religious, and therefore protected. They then demanded the School change its policies to accommodate them, and the School refused, also just like Fluke, except their School is funded by taxpayers. The First Amendment arguments were thrown out because the student group was NOT actually of a religion, just the beliefs of a group of Students who called THEMSELVES Christians, which is NOT protected. Again, you don't HAVE to go to Georgetown, but if you DO, you can't expect Georgetown to change to suit YOU. Religious Freedom Restoration Act clarifies, and yes, religious beliefs actually DO exempt people from civil laws, as in war drafts Conscientious Objector to doing drugs Employment Division v. Smith.--209.6.69.227 (talk) 18:25, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
::*"Religions do not have any law behind them to "impose" anything,..."< -- That much was communicated by "Nor does it entitle one to impose those beliefs upon others...". Religions may not be lawfully imposed upon others, we agree. Thus the store owner can't lawfully forbid the paramedics to give you medical assistance. And Jim Jones couldn't lawfully kill off the outsiders who'd come to visit Jonestown (along with all of his own believers), though he did it anyway. It's that "anyway" bit that needs constraining. Fanatics tend to disregard the law and others' rights, infamously with "fire and sword".
"... you agree to abide by their rules; no-one compels you to do so. If you don't share those values, you cannot be forced not to leave and abide by them." -- Not lawfully, no, but in fact... I gather you've never heard of people being invited on religious retreats and not allowed to leave until they'd converted. The Unification Church ("Moonies") are especially noted for this, but they're not the sole offender. The very things you say don't happen, do happen. Arguing that there's no law making them happen, so they don't need to be guarded against, is like saying there's no law requiring murder and robbery, so we needn't worry about those either. More reading: [http://www.factnet.org/node/1796]; Steven Hassan. – •Raven .talk 03:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
::::Hi, Raven; welcome back, always like the back and forth. The problem with cults is the same as with the mentally incapable or minor children of, for instance, Christian Scientists. There is a question of whether the association is "free", meaning voluntary. There is no question that when an adult CHOOSES to go to a Catholic University, for instance, they are making a free choice, and as such voluntarily agree to the religiously-determined principles that institution is run by. The Constitution defends your right to go or not to go to a Catholic University, and defends the right of the Catholic University to be Catholic. --209.6.69.227 (talk) 22:43, 4 August 2012 (UTC)