User talk:Charlie Faust

Hi Charlie Faust, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like it here and decide to stay. Our intro page provides helpful information for new users—please check it out! If you have any questions, you can get help from experienced editors at the Teahouse. Happy editing! Andre🚐 02:00, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

File:Information.svg Hello, I'm Materialscientist. I wanted to let you know that I reverted one of your recent contributions—specifically [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Roger%20Ebert&diff=1183725836 this edit] to :Roger Ebert—because it did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Teahouse or the Help desk. Thanks. Materialscientist (talk) 03:25, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

:Well, I thought it was a little heavy on quotes, is all. If you like it, terrific. (I like it myself, it just seems a bit quote heavy.) Charlie Faust (talk) 03:28, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

I noticed that you made many changes to Bach's biography, and I don't have the time right now to look in detail. Thank you for your attention, but I noticed some things: (in German) you don't study at a Gymnasium, but only at a university. The whole bassoon player anecdote seems out of place, but if kept he is certainly not a singer. Who called whom three B's when seems also only marginally related to Bach's music. Please check such things. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:38, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

:I didn't add the Gymnasium, or the Geyersbach incident (the bassoonist). Those were both there before me. I don't see why the bassoon incident is out place; as I said, it was there before me, and is mentioned by John Eliot Gardiner in Bach: Music in the Castle of Heaven.

:I think it's worth noting that the three B's were Bach, Beethoven and Berliozz (later Brahms). Times change, but Bach remains a lasting influence. Charlie Faust (talk) 23:35, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

:: Thank you for explaining. The idea to improve Bach is noble, but details are the way.

::* You are right, you didn't add Gymnasium, but you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Johann_Sebastian_Bach&diff=prev&oldid=1215591403 added "studied"], and I told you that you don't "study" at a German Gymnasium, only at a university. I find it a bit problematic that your edit summaries take a while to be digested, - can you please shorten them, in this case perhaps just "active voice"?

::* I love Gardiner's book, but just because he brings something doesn't say that we must repeat it.

::* We will have to disagree about the 3B. What does it add about the understanding of Bach's music?

:: I brought several Bach compositions to featured article and found that tough enough, BWV 1, BWV 4, BWV 227, among others - the latter the hardest. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:23, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

:::I admit I'm not an expert on German primary education, so I'll defer to you on that one. Feel free to fix it.

:::The Geyersbach incident seems out place? I'm not sure it does. We don't really know much about the life of Johann Sebastian Bach, but that incident is documented.

:::The 3 B's might not add to our understanding of Bach's music, but it does add to our understanding of Bach's legacy. By the nineteenth century, his stock had risen so that he was considered one of the three major composers in Western music (along with Beethoven and Berlioz. Later in the century, Brahms replaced Berlioz.) The 3 B's is still a phrase I hear used. It belongs in Legacy because it shows how his stock had risen by the nineteenth century. Even after Brahms replaced Berlioz, Bach remained as one of the 3 B's, a position he's held ever since. Times change, but Bach's influence remains. Charlie Faust (talk) 01:17, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

:Thank you, hope you're having a great holiday season. Charlie Faust (talk) 17:33, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

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Hi. When you move content within an article, please do it in one edit. If that is too difficult, please paste into the new location first, then remove the duplicate in the second edit. I disagreed with one of your edits on History of quantum mechanics but when I reverted it I discovered that what you described as a delete was actually a paste and a delete. I think I have sorted it, please check. Johnjbarton (talk) 04:05, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:Duly noted. I will do a better job of summarizing my edits. Thank you for restoring Planck's equation, E\; =\; h\; v. That's one of the most important equations in physics.

:Under "Spin quantization", wouldn't the place to start be Uhlenbeck and Goudsmit's discovery of spin? Pauli's exclusion principle is mentioned but not defined. Shouldn't it be? Pauli's principle won him the Nobel. ({{cite web| title=The Nobel Prize in Physics 1945| work=The Nobel Foundation| url=https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/1945/summary/}} Still more signifcant, it, explains the structure of atoms by explaining why electrons don't just fall into the lowest energy state. Actually, Pauli isn't mentioned in the section, as far as I can tell. He should be.

:Re: Dirac, I see that there's no longer a template saying the lead is too long. That's good. There was stuff in there about Dirac's influence on string theory. Great thinkers, as Graham Farmelo notes, are posthumously productive, but string theory didn't really take off until after Dirac died, so associating him with string theory is a bit of a stretch. If you haven't read Farmelo's The Strangest Man: The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom, I recommend it. Charlie Faust (talk) 14:35, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:But yes, thank you for the feedback. I will try to quantize my edits, and do a better job of explaining them.

:I added Wolfgang Pauli under "Spin quantization", along with a more detailed explanation of the Exclusion Principle.

:Should "de Broglie's matter wave hypothesis" be before "Spin quantization"? de Broglie's paper was in 1924, Pauli's principle in 1925, as was Uhlenbeck and Goudsmit's experiment. Charlie Faust (talk) 14:48, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

::Regarding edit summaries, may I suggest focusing on the purpose of your change rather than its content? The wikipedia diff page gives the content of the change clearly, but of course it does not give the motivation. Unless the change is controversial, shorter is better ;-)

::I have read Farmelo, thanks. As for the other issues I would be happy to continue discussions on those talk pages. Johnjbarton (talk) 19:57, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Duly noted; the content change is clear, the motivation not always so.

:::Reading James Gleick's Genius: The Life and Science of Richard Feynman. It's a good one. Charlie Faust (talk) 23:08, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Yes, I agree on the Feynman bio. Johnjbarton (talk) 01:32, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::There's not a WP page for it; I think I'll make one.

:::::If you're looking for things to work on (and you may not be!), the pages for Louis de Broglie and Wolfgang Pauli need work. The former needs primary sources; I added one to his New York Times obit. Those usually tell you what you need to know, and things you didn't know you needed to know. As for the latter, he didn't get a NYT obituary! Shame on them, I guess. Charlie Faust (talk) 15:12, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::Well, the draft got deleted, but I made another one. Charlie Faust (talk) 00:43, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::OK, the article is live. Please take a look. Charlie Faust (talk) 14:23, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for offering links, but did you not know that we usually link once in the lead and once in the body of an article? If you think a second link is needed please explain why in your edit summary. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:18, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

:Perhaps I was overzealous in adding links. I feel if a piece is newly mentioned in a section, it should have a link. Better too many links than too few, I think. If it leads some lucky reader to discover, say, the Mass in B Minor, isn't that a wonderful thing? But I'll be more careful in adding links. Charlie Faust (talk) 16:22, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

::: (edit conflict) I like your enthusiasm! Wikipedia is a project with some guidelines, and overlinking is one of them. I saw another form after I wrote the above, a link to Beethoven before Missa solemnis: not needed. Whoever doesn't know Beethoven can surely find him in the Missa article. Good fix to remove the italics, thank you. Another convention is to say B minor (not: B Minor), - please follow, for a unified appearance to our readers. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:39, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

::::OK, glad you like my enthusiasm, and my removing the italics in Missa solemnis. Did not know about B minor (as opposed to B Minor). Thank you. Charlie Faust (talk) 16:59, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

::To the page for that piece, I added "Hans Georg Nägeli described the work, in 1818, as "the greatest musical art work of all times and nations." ({{cite web |url = http://www.wdl.org/en/item/11619/ |title = Missa in B Minor ("Kyrie" and "Gloria" of the B Minor Mass)}}) You had "doubts if that is lead-worthy". If it being "the greatest musical art work of all times and nations" isn't lead-worthy, what is? Charlie Faust (talk) 16:35, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

::: That would be lead-worthy if a neutral statement, but as advertisement of his edition?? I have my doubts. It's in the article in the context, which would be too much for the lead. If you want it there, please suggest on the article talk page. Perhaps I am the only sceptic. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:39, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

::::I feel it's worth adding, as Nägeli is not alone in his assessment. And many articles round out there leads with similar quotes; William Shakespeare's lead closes with a quote from Ben Jonson: "not of an age, but for all time". Charlie Faust (talk) 17:02, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

::::: Suggest that on the article talk. I always try to let the music speak for itself. See Mass in B minor structure. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:28, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

:Since you love Gardiner's Bach: Music in the Castle of Heaven, you might enjoy his documentary [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVeYL-Qhpec Bach: A Passionate Life]. Like Shakespeare, we don't know that much of Bach's life, but he reveals himself in his work. Gardiner traces his influence "from Mozart to Mendelsohn, Beethoven to Brahms. And not just in classical music. From Duke Ellington to The Beatles, musicians in jazz and pop have fallen under his spell and learned from his techniques. Bach is still the benchmark, the musical gold standard."

:I think it would be worth noting some of that influence in the article. Claude Debussy [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Debussy#Influences called] Bach the "good God of music".

:Debussy and Stravinsky have Featured Articles; it's time Bach did, too.

:Enjoy Gardiner! Charlie Faust (talk) 13:01, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

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:: Thank you, enjoyed. So funny they end on "mir gefällst du nicht" - "I don't like you", in the middle of a piece ;) - Gardiner conducted for us in Dortmund in December, - admirable! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:53, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::Thought you'd enjoy that. Bach has also been the subject of at least one [https://doodles.google/doodle/celebrating-johann-sebastian-bach/ Google doodle]. Charlie Faust (talk) 23:17, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

::: I didn't think much about Google doodle, hadn't even noticed them, until the one for Kafka made me co-lead the list of most-viewed FAs for a while (until Queen Elizabeth II died) ;) - Can you please get rid of the refs below? You could place template reflist where they appear, or could just define them there (removing ref and /ref), or think they serve no purpose any longer and delete them, or archive the thread(s). - Back to Bach: I have one of his compositions up for FA, Easter Oratorio, and plan one more this year, BWV 79, rather than bringing the bio up to standard which looks like a tremendously hard job, given the many sources that would have to be considered, and the youtube could not be used. (History of Christianity has more than 600.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:30, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Kafka is great. "Gregor Samsa awoke to find he'd been transformed into a giant insect." (That's how it translates in English, not sure how it reads in German.) The fantastic presented realistically.

::::I agree that the Gardiner documentary shouldn't be used as a primary source, but maybe as a supplement (an External link?) [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01k4sg1 "Discovering Bach"] from BBC Radio 3 is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Sebastian_Bach#Further_reading already there]. Maybe if we could find a link to it on the BBC site...

::::I want to read Christoph Wolff's Bach's Musical Universe. The title, I suspect, has two meanings: the universe of Bach's music, and the idea that the universe has musical properties, an idea that goes back to Pythagoras (the "music of the spheres".) Charlie Faust (talk) 12:54, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

::::: Good ideas! Add the video to Gardiner's bio, {{tl:YouTube}}. - I finally managed to upload the pics I meant for Easter, see places. - Also finally, I managed a FAC, Easter Oratorio. I wanted that on the main page for Easter Sunday, but no, twice. You are invited to join a discussion about what "On this day" means, day or date. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:00, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::Oddly, the [https://doodles.google/doodle/celebrating-johann-sebastian-bach/ Bach Google] doodle was the first made with AI. That's a theme of Douglas Hofstadter's Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid. Hofstadter thinks the mind is a computer; I think he's wrong. (Roger Penrose agrees with me.) Anyway, it's fascinating.

::::::Making Bach a Featured Article would not be easy, but you don't seem to be daunted by big topics. Charlie Faust (talk) 14:04, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::I think detail is a key to good writing. Under "Reception", we read "Haydn owned manuscript copies of The Well-Tempered Clavier and the Mass in B minor and was influenced by Bach's music. Mozart owned a copy of one of Bach's motets, transcribed some of his instrumental works (K. 404a, 405), and wrote contrapuntal music influenced by his style."

::::::Well, that's true enough, but I think it would worth noting how, specifically, Bach influenced Haydn and Mozart.

::::::You said details are the way to improve the article, and you're right. Charlie Faust (talk) 13:21, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::: Well, Bach never was their teacher, so what they took from him is perhaps more relevant to their articles than his? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:47, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::I added Philippe Herreweghe to notable 20th century performers of Bach's work. (Herreweghe's page needs work.) His [https://www.npr.org/2011/07/18/102784645/bachs-mass-in-b-minor-a-cathedral-in-sound recording] of the Mass in B minor was listed as essential by NPR Music, and rightly. Charlie Faust (talk) 13:36, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::: His St John Passion (not even 2 weeks ago) was remarkable, although he seemed to do little. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:47, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::It seems to me Yo Yo Ma deserves a place under notable 20th century performers, too.

::::::::Listened to a broadcast Mozart's Marriage of Figaro today. It's a good one, as you don't need me to tell you. Featured a soprano named Elizabeth Bishop. Did not know her work, did know the poet of that name.

::::::::Mozart should also have a Featured Article. One thing at a time, though... Charlie Faust (talk) 20:53, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::I feel rounding out the lead with a quote would be apposite; see Shakespeare, which rounds out with a quote by Ben Jonson. (There is a quote in there: "And of course the greatest master of harmony and counterpoint of all time was Johann Sebastian Bach, 'the Homer of music." I love "the Homer of music". It reminds me of Wordsworth on Milton: "Thou hadst a voice whose sound was like the sea." Charlie Faust (talk) 01:21, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::: I don't feel like it, - theses clever words seem to say more about those who say them than Bach. Listen to my story, another Bach work turning 300 and still fresh ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:31, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Well, maybe it's best to let Bach's music speak for itself. Do think quotes are useful in illuminating facets of it, but really, it's hard to say it better than Bach did. Charlie Faust (talk) 02:58, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::: thank you! - all Bach today if you click on music under the dandelions ;) - Masaaki Suzuki's bday whose pic was taken in the same church as "my" 2023 concert --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:57, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::Not bad! Unfortunately, I have not seen many big name conductors. The Takacs Quartet, one of the world's premiere string quartets, is based in my hometown, and I have seen them. A friend saw Yo Yo Ma at Red Rocks Amphitheater, but I missed it.

::::::::::::I think influence is worth noting. Schubert was a torchbearer at Beethoven's funeral, and his last request was to hear Beethoven's String Quartet No. 14, Op 131. A torch of a different kind was passed to Johannes Brahms, who picks up where Beethoven left off in his Symphony No. 1. All of that would be worth noting on Beethoven's page. Charlie Faust (talk) 15:17, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::: Schubert as torchbearer says something about Schubert, but what does it add to Beethoven's bio? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:54, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::I think it adds a lot, that the torch was literally being passed to a younger composer of genius. Charlie Faust (talk) 19:51, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::: I never saw Suzuki life, but many of the others, including Gardiner last year. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:55, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::Re: Schubert, you say links in quotes are discouraged. But there are already links to Winterreise, Bruckner and Mahler. Why not have a link to the Unfinished and the Ninth Symphony? You say you bet there are links to them, but there aren't in the section, that I can see. As you know, I'm in favor of links, but you're right that we should avoid superfluity. Charlie Faust (talk) 20:00, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

{{od}} probably repeating: you talk about featured articles a lot, and for featured articles, the rule is simple: one link in the lead and one link in the body. Period. Not in a section. (You need to argue if you want one in the life section and another in the work section.) Better get used to that, in all articles ;) - I had no time to look at more than your edit, - if there are repeated links, please remove them. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:34, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

:OK. The Tommasini quote seems paraphrased to me; best to stick to what he actually wrote. If you haven't read it, I recommend his The Indispensable Composers.

You have to love the guy, who died at 31, ill, impoverished and neglected except by a circle of friends who were in awe of his genius. For his hundreds of songs alone — including the haunting cycle Winterreise, which will never release its tenacious hold on singers and audiences — Schubert is central to our concert life. The baritone Sanford Sylvan once told me that hearing the superb pianist Stephen Drury give searching accounts of the three late Schubert sonatas on a single program was one of the most transcendent musical experiences of his life. Schubert’s first few symphonies may be works in progress. But the Unfinished and especially the Ninth Symphony are astonishing. The Ninth paves the way for Bruckner and prefigures Mahler.{{cite news| last=Tommasini| first=Anthony| author-link=Anthony Tommasini| date=January 21, 2011| title=The Greatest| work=The New York Times| url=https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/23/arts/music/23composers.html}}

:: I love the guy (search for Schubert). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:36, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

:::One of the giants. Tomassini's has him fourth. (The list, if you were wondering, is 1. Bach 2. Beethoven 3. Mozart 4. Schubert 5. Debussy 6. Stravinsky 7. Brahms 8. Verdi 9. Wagner 10. Bartok.)

:::That's a good list. I think it's fun to imagine it for other fields (say, painting.) I'm not an art critic, but I guess you'd have to have Michelangelo, Rembrandt, Vermeer, Van Gogh, Matisse, Picasso... Charlie Faust (talk) 22:49, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

:::: I have no interest in rating genius. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:38, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::You're probably right. But Tommasini intends it as a parlor game. And I think it's useful in that it gets us to think about why these artists matter.

:::::But yes, a numerical ranking is arbitrary. That Bach is a great composer matters more than where he stands in relation to other composers. Charlie Faust (talk) 12:37, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::Alex Ross makes some of the same points as you in the title essay of Listen to This. He argues that the very name "classical music" deadens a vibrant artform. Ross's writing is lively and illuminating. Charlie Faust (talk) 01:34, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::I feel Mozart's page should have something about Amadeus, both Peter Shaffer's play and Milos Forman's film. I have many doubts about its historical accuracy (Salieri was apparently a good composer held in esteem by Mozart) but it's none the less an important work. The page for Schubert (a Good Article) tells us "Schubert has featured as a character in several films including Schubert's Dream of Spring (1931), Gently My Songs Entreat (1933), Serenade (1940), The Great Awakening (1941)—whose plot is based on a fictional episode of him fleeing Vienna to Hungary to avoid conscription—It's Only Love (1947), Franz Schubert (1953), Das Dreimäderlhaus (1958), and Mit meinen heißen Tränen (1986)." None of those are as famous as Amadeus. Charlie Faust (talk) 12:34, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Alex Ross is one of the best critics writing. If you don't know his work, he's written profiles of [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1997/02/03/great-soul Schubert], Brahms and others. He listened [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/07/24/the-storm-of-style to the complete Mozart]. He followed [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1999/05/10/the-wanderer the elusive Bob Dylan]. He could have scored an interview with him, but he knows better than to believe anything he says. Anyway, probably better to let Dylan reside in mystery.

:::::Béla Bartók needs work; the lead is apparently "too short to adequately summarize the key points." I added some major works, but it still needs work. Charlie Faust (talk) 14:05, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::I see on the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page home page] (under "On this day"): "* 1725 – Bach led the first performance of his cantata Ich bin ein guter Hirt, BWV 85, about Jesus as the Good Shepherd." Is this your doing? (If so, kudos).

:::::Definitely recommend Ross's Listen to This, a collection of pieces covering artists as diverse as Brahms, Bjork and Bob Dylan. The [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/02/16/listen-to-this title essay] is about how, having grown up with classical music, he came to appreciate popular music, and how such boundaries are blurring. Music is music. "[https://www.newyorker.com/culture/new-yorker-festival/alex-ross-chacona-lamento-walking-blues Chacona, Lamento, Walking Bass]" traces motifs across time and space, from Bach to Bob Dylan. (Here's a [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdZL33997OI video] accompaniment.)

:::::A friend recommended Andrew Porter, Ross's predecessor at The New Yorker. And I should read Charles Rosen...

:::::What music books can you recommend? Charlie Faust (talk) 15:25, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

{{reflist}}