WT:WikiProject Visual arts#Chronology categories for the arts

Hello editors,

I have a question about Follow my dreams page. It is about a hand-painted mural by the italian artist TVBoy in 2022 in the city of Barcelona. This mural was originally called "Super Alexia" where you could read in the background the phrase: "Follow your dreams" with the footballer Alexia Putellas stepped out painted in a Superwoman outfit with a cape clearly visible on her back. In 2023, due to the multitude of vandalism acts, the artist decided to redo the mural, but neither the phrase nor the drawing of the player were the same. You can see the clear differences with the 2022 painting: [https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al%C3%A8xia_Putellas_mural_20230516.jpg#mw-jump-to-license] and the 2023 updated painting: [https://twitter.com/tvboy/status/1705867487596666887]

In the Talk:Follow my dreams I proposed to make different articles because the new painting of 2023 should be treated as a completely different one even if it is located in the same place and on top of the old painting. The painting and the message in the background is totally different as you can read in the article: [https://www.ara.cat/esports/barca-femeni/artista-italia-dibuixa-alexia-parets-barcelona_130_4814485.html]

Throughout history, many painters have painted over other paintings and they have never been treated as updates of these but yes as a different works. It is currently an active dispute with user {{U|Kingsif}} that recently moved the page [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Follow_my_dreams&diff=prev&oldid=1211233117&title=Follow_my_dreams&diffonly=1 (Super Alexia to Follow my dreams)] and reverses the edits I made because he wants to fix the date of the old 2022 painting but the name "Follow my dreams" was created in the year 2023 not in 2022.

What do you think?

Hi everyone, can someone help me improve this article? It has been declined with the comment "The sources are too trivial to establish notabiliity." I am a bit stuck of how to improve the sources. The artist was featured in Venice Biennale (Greek pavilion, national participation) and I've added a citation from their official website and e-flux. I have a feeling the reviewer is not familiar with the fine arts and/or music world. Any help would be more than welcome. I am working on my next article, but this has somehow demotivated me. Kamien Case (talk) 15:13, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

:I think my first note would be about sources. A lot of the sources you've used in that article are not independent - for example, you should not cite an artist's personal website or their commercial gallery's website in the artist's biography article (and just because you can find examples of artist bios where those kinds of sources have been cited, doesn't mean it's right). You also should not use an organization's website to confirm details about that organization - for example, you cannot use the Atlas Ensemble's website as the source of the details of this artist's work with that group. You need to find independent coverage of the artist in reliable publications. Independent is key here; if the artist has a sustained professional relationship with a source, that source probably doesn't belong in the artist bio. We're in a difficult moment for arts scholarship and writing generally, as there are simply not as many reliable publications still publishing detailed information about artists, but we do still have to find and use those sources instead of relying on information published by the artist or their colleagues. Happy to take a deeper dive if you'd like. 19h00s (talk) 15:26, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you for your reply @19h00s. Yes, I'd be more than happy to have some help with this. Maybe the article should be simplified and information that can't be properly cited to be deleted. The tricky part is that the artist is not a solid visual artist, he seems to work with sound and space. I find a lot of references on sound/music compositions, but they kind of stop around corona time. After that I read interdisciplinary/transdisciplinary artist etc. I already include in the article citations about his participation as an artist in a couple of museums. I just finished another thorough google search on his name. Here's a few things I've found:

::Mentions on the music magazine The Wire.[https://reader.exacteditions.com/magazines/493/search?q=deligiannis] But we can only read the full mentions with a subscription (I don't have one).

::A (quite old) mention on the site Hellenic Music Archive.[https://hellenicmusicarchive.gr/archive/item/307?lang=en]

::Mention in the Athens Epidaurus Festival of 2021 as a tutor in a workshop at the Little theatre of ancient Epidaurus.[https://tours-transfers.gr/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Athens-Epidaurus-Festival-2021-Programme.pdf]

::A review for the CD Not A Single Road by the American Recorder organisation.[https://americanrecorder.org/docs/AR_Fall2020_body.pdf]

::An interview at VPRO about the work Alice (mentioned as an experimental performative installation) in Dutch.[https://www.vpro.nl/vrije-geluiden/lees/tips/2017/week35-36/thanasis-deligiannis-alice.html]

::An article on Alice by the Dutch newspaper nrc (needs subscription, I have downloaded the page because I have one).[https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2017/09/01/muziektheater-voor-wie-durft-dromen-delen-met-vreemden-12768666-a1571840]

::A mention about Alice and Deligiannis on the Dutch festival November Music.[https://www.novembermusic.net/programma/thanasis-deligiannis]

::An interview on the platform Re-Fuse at the Opera Forward Festival.[https://lauraroling.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/OFinterviewDeligiannishq.pdf]

::A mention in an article at the site Issue Project Room about the New York Foundation for the Arts residency Deligiannis took part in.[https://issueprojectroom.org/event/nyfas-first-international-composers-exchange]

::An article about the Venice Biennale work at the Thessaloniki International Documentary Festival.[https://www.filmfestival.gr/en/all-news-en/28820-xiromero-dryland-unveiling-of-the-greek-participation-at-the-60th-biennale]

::There's many mentions online about Venice Biennale and Deligiannis, I already have included in the article the official site of La Biennale and the critique by e-flux.

::Another reviewer (Aza24) I've asked for help wrote me this: "Also, he is mentioned in this book which seems like a high-quality reference worth using [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Reclaiming_Archaeology]."

::There are two youtube channels appearing as video-score channels: Score Follower and Incipitsify, where some Deligiannis' works show up. I've clicked on their link and I got a website that looks like an app. Here's what I see when typing Deligiannis in search:[https://scorefol.io/search?searchTerm=deligiannis]

::His participation (music) in a work listed at the Greek government site for culture.[https://allofgreeceone.culture.gov.gr/en/event/bestiario/]

::I hope I'm not spamming here with info that is not useful. But I think some of the above could be of use. Kamien Case (talk) 19:43, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

:::Happy to take a look at a few of these sources, though I don't have time to dive into all of them. Right off the bat though, I would very much agree that you should simplify and delete information that doesn't have a reliable, independent citation. I totally agree that this artist deserves an article - the Venice Biennale is arguably the only international art event where participating as an artist almost automatically makes that artist notable enough for a Wikipedia article - but a lot of the information you've included just needs to be cut until you can find a reliable, independent source that directly supports that point. Will take a look through some of these sources in a few. 19h00s (talk) 22:30, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

:::OK, after taking a look at a few of these sources, this may be a bit out of my wheelhouse. I know there are super established norms and rules around sourcing information for musical artists (the Albums WikiProject maintains a list of both reliable and deprecated music publications, of which there are quite a lot). But I'm not super familiar with those guidelines or publications. For example, I really don't know if the Hellenic Music Archive can be considered reliable (this is not me mistrusting the source, I just don't know music sources super well). I would suggest if you haven't already maybe asking folks in the Albums or Music WikiProjects for assistance, as they would most likely be able to offer more detailed insights. But as it stands, I do think this artist deserves a bio article; I'm just not sure how detailed it can be yet. Sorry I can't be of more detailed help.

:::A broader note, though: Interviews are generally considered primary sources and should be cited with extreme caution. The content of an interview is essentially just a subject's own material (the things they said), so you should use interviews very cautiously. My rule of thumb is that I only cite interviews when they are directly quoted in a separate, reliable, independent publication. With visual artists, often that manifests with one curator publishing an interview with an artist and several years later another curator or art historian will quote that interview in an essay or article about the artist, meaning a separate reliable secondary source have themselves cited and analyzed the primary source quote. 19h00s (talk) 22:44, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

::::@19h00s thanks a lot for spending time on this. So I'll keep the Venice Biennale info in the article as a core for its notability and will ask in the music and composers projects for more help on sources related to these topics. If I think of questions you could maybe help with I might get back here bothering you. Kamien Case (talk) 13:29, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

:::REally you need reviews (perhaps quoting them) not "mentions" - have you read WP:ARTIST? 00:20, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

File:Information.svg There is a requested move discussion at Talk:George Washington (Trumbull)#Requested move 20 March 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. TarnishedPath^talk 12:20, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Writer, Musician, Actor, etc. have stand-alone articles. This is just a redirect. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:31, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

:You may be right, although to me it feels like 'Painter' is covered well in the Painting page and a competing article would overly diversify the topic. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:08, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

::@Randy Kryn Splitting such broad concepts is not the easiest task, but if we can have writing and writer, etc. I think there is a conceptual problem. And generally, such key professions can have subarticles. Painter can discuss painter's career, education, psychology, and likely a bunch of stuff we don't need or don't even touch upon in painting (activity). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:15, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

:::We have the fairly crappy artist - few artists are only painters. I agree with Randy Kryn we don't need another article; artist could certainly be improved. Obviously writing/writer is a completely different case - most people have undergone extensive training in writing, but are not writers. Johnbod (talk) 17:53, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Music/Musician. Acting/Actor. On the other hand, yes, Sculpting/Sculptor (both redirect to sculpture). Shrug. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 23:21, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::Musician is hardly worth having, though actor is good, if highly Western-centric. Johnbod (talk) 23:35, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

Hey all, hoping for some help from other modern/contemporary art editors. The article Black Abstractionism covers the recent - 20th century on - history of African–American and other Black artists creating and exhibiting abstract art. I flagged this on the talk page but didn't get any responses; I think the article is very important and contains info that totally belongs on Wiki, but it's nowhere near being in line with the MOS or Wiki's sourcing rules.

The bigger issue to me though is the title. I have no idea how editors came to the term "Black Abstractionism" as the authoritative phrase for the general history of abstract art by Black artists; I can't think of any notable authors who have posited that phrase as the primary identifier of this history/movement - lots of different terms abound, both historical and contemporary, from Afro-American Abstraction to Blackstraction, none have become the de facto or authoritative term in the literature, to my knowledge. Given the content of the article, it makes more sense to me to be titled something like "Abstract art by black artists" or similar. There have been a huge number of exhibitions/journal articles/books in the past 25 years chronicling this topic and history, so it clearly deserves an article of its own (even if, imo, and in the opinion of many scholars/artists, it's reductive to group artists as "black abstract artists" instead of simply "abstract artists" or even "artists"). The title just doesn't make sense to me.

Do others have insights into what this article should be titled? Again, I asked on the talk page but haven't heard anything. None of the sources seem to support the title as it's been chosen currently. 19h00s (talk) 20:24, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

:Noting that there are a lot of artist bios on here that now include language to the effect of "this artist was a figure in Black Abstractionism", seemingly added by editors working on this article. Because so many museums are now reusing Wikipedia content, a lot of museums have that copy republished directly on their websites, meaning people are reading info on a museum website that they will assume is authoritative that makes it seem as if this identifier is correct and universal. Wouldn't be surprised if this somehow snowballs into a sort of citogenesis situation with third party writers/reporters assuming that this term is the authoritative phrasing for this topic. 19h00s (talk) 20:37, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

Statue of Ronald Reagan (Arlington, Virginia) has been nominated for deletion, if any project members are interested in weighing in or improving the article. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 02:00, 16 April 2025 (UTC)