Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad images/Evidence#Evidence presented by ASCIIn2Bme

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The number of figurative images of Muhammad in Muhammad rose sharply after the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy. On [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad&oldid=24421877 the day the cartoons were published], there was one Islamic image of the more common (veiled) type in the article. As the controversy played out, the number of images increased, as did the number of editors who only edited the article to remove or add/restore images. By [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad&oldid=458957928 November 2011], there were 6 images of Muhammad (4 unveiled: 3 of the rarer, unveiled Islamic type, 1 Western), while images like those of the Kaaba, included in the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad&oldid=223711043 GA version] (4 figurative images, 2 unveiled), had disappeared.

• 18/11/2011: Following discussions on Jimbo's talk ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_87#Religious_neutrality][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_87#Wikipedia.27s_Neutrality_in_Religion.3F]), User:Resolute made a compromise proposal that attracted majority support on Talk:Muhammad/images. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&oldid=467605363#Proposed_image_solution][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&oldid=467605363#Level_of_support_for_Resolute.27s_compromise].
• Resolute's proposal envisaged 4 images (2 unveiled), as in the GA version:
• one "flame" image in the bio section,
• two of the relatively common mi'raj-type images (one veiled, one unveiled) in the Depictions section
• one Western image (with the option of adding another).
• 24/11/2011: First attempt to implement reverted by User:FormerIP, who up to that point had never contributed to either the article or its talk pages. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad&diff=462218111&oldid=462076259][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad&diff=462287034&oldid=462219957]
• 1/12/2011: Implementation reverted again by User:FormerIP [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad&diff=463546611&oldid=463293864][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad&diff=463549942&oldid=463547924]

• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=464881224&oldid=464879474] – WP:NPOV cannot be divorced from what sources do, as the neutral point of view is defined as reflecting sources' viewpoints in due proportion.
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=464095410&oldid=464093909] – WP:NPOV, specifically WP:DUE, applies to images as well as text, and has done for many years. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view&diff=prev&oldid=60237308]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=463701015&oldid=463676953] – WP:NPOV takes into account the entire pool of reliable sources (in our case, with a particular focus on English-language sources). There is no a-priori exclusion of Islam's philosophical position: per policy, we reflect it to the extent it is reflected in reliable sources.
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=463862554&oldid=463860710][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=463890502&oldid=463888224] – The first argument in the first diff is valid. However, excluding from consideration highly reputable sources with whose editorial stance we don't agree – as suggested in the second argument in that diff – circumvents and subverts the aim of reflecting viewpoints in proportion to their published prominence. (Cf. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_88#NOTCENSORED_and_illustrations])

• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=465057189&oldid=465056860][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=465061366&oldid=465061072][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=465064362&oldid=465063891][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=465197040&oldid=465195893][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive731#Disruption_at_Talk:Muhammad_by_User:FormerIP]

My and others' argument isn't based on offensiveness. Offensiveness is indeed irrelevant. The editorial standards of sources however are highly relevant. It is their judgment we should follow. In this case, my impression is that we show more images of Muhammad, and specifically more unveiled images, than is warranted by their general prevalence in English-language sources on Muhammad. From an NPOV perspective, I have no problem with showing some such images in Muhammad, or showing a bunch of them in Depictions of Muhammad.

The same policy criteria apply in any other article where images might be offensive to some readers. We should simply follow sources, to the best of our ability. We shouldn't knowingly set out to depart from them, under the hubristic assumption that we know better.

;@Coren

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FCase%2FMuhammad_images%2FWorkshop&action=historysubmit&diff=467307358&oldid=467290796].

Personalised disputes in multiple venues: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AWhat_Wikipedia_is_not&action=historysubmit&diff=459401990&oldid=459388927][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&diff=457090636&oldid=457090156]; [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=463101936&oldid=463101133][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=463108838&oldid=463108305][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=463112901&oldid=463111947][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=463115138&oldid=463114842][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=463117639&oldid=463117047][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=463118832&oldid=463117788][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=463125481&oldid=463118832][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=463127825&oldid=463125481]; [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=460154379]; [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=464392825&oldid=464391033][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=464399394&oldid=464392825][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=464402080&oldid=464399394][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=464408320&oldid=464402080][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=464451420&oldid=464440483][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=464464018&oldid=464462153][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=464475557&oldid=464464535] etc.

"Muslim scholars are not reliable sources": [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJayen466&action=historysubmit&diff=467913474&oldid=467882341]

[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad_images/Workshop&diff=468222610&oldid=468221555]

• [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=olEi-1LZYYQC&pg=PA159&dq=%22Such+illustrations+were+not+for+public+consumption,+however%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ax8OT_asJcOX8QOD5enyBQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Such%20illustrations%20were%20not%20for%20public%20consumption%2C%20however%22&f=false][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aniconism_in_Islam&diff=425392779&oldid=425392656 2nd para] [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=s63i21E9dr8C&pg=PA32&dq=%22a+miniature+tradition,+admittedly+a+courtly+legacy%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qSAOT8GVC4Tc8QPPj5TNBQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22a%20miniature%20tradition%2C%20admittedly%20a%20courtly%20legacy%22&f=false] [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4KNSp-uEO18C&pg=PA207&dq=%22To+give+an+indication+of+the+milieu+in+which+these+manuscripts+were+composed%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7iAOT9vBHNSg8gOM1KnkBQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22To%20give%20an%20indication%20of%20the%20milieu%20in%20which%20these%20manuscripts%20were%20composed%22&f=false]

• Schimmel: 137 citations for "And Muhammad ..." in [http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=schimmel+%22muhammad+is+his+messenger%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=ws Google Scholar].

• The "Ascension" image in Ernst doesn't show Muhammad, but exemplifies modern painting in Iran ...([http://sufibooks.info/Islam/Following_Muhammad_rethinking_Islam_in_the_contemporary_world_Carl_Ernst.pdf pp. 194, 196]).

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[http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/2010_Wikimedia_Study_of_Controversial_Content:_Part_Three#Images_of_the_.E2.80.9Csacred.E2.80.9D]

[http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Controversial_content/Board_report]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Follow_the_principle_of_least_astonishment]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=459819070 Statement]. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Tony_Sidaway&oldid=128942466#Jimbo_as_policy_maker Game over]? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests#Request_for_clarification:_Jimmy_Wales.27_powers Maybe not]?

In May 2011, ArbCom "cautioned [him] to discuss matters more circumspectly and to avoid drama-creating rhetoric"

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration_Enforcement_sanction_handling&oldid=445337608#Ludwigs2_cautioned]. In October 2011, Ludwigs2 was topic-banned from Astrology for poisoning-the-well comments [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&oldid=455524523#Ludwigs2 (AE)]. Concomitant complaints for his tone at Pregnancy: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ludwigs2/Archive_16#Pregnancy].

On Muhammad's depictions:

• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=456773786&oldid=456728780 "the extravagant effort I see dumped into defending these trivial images is only explainable by deep-seated anti-Islamic prejudice"]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=459047801 "that's almost worthy of a clinical diagnosis"]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=459056632 "You are not using ethical reasoning - that is a demonstrable fact"]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ludwigs2&diff=prev&oldid=459371397 "keep your grubby little fingers out of my psyche"]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=459357060 "what you just said was patently idiotic nonsense"]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=459011476 "except, Robert, no other policies matter to you"]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=459056548 "Resolute: the only thing 'personal' about this debate is that people (like you) keep talking crap about me, which is not something I can do anything about."]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=460364013 "a claim that 'reasoned arguments' might be successful is pure fantasy."]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=462283444 "I find it deeply disturbing that anti-religious sentiment is this intense on project. You collectively seem incapable of distinguishing between religion and religious extremism, and attack both indiscriminately."]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=462226422 "I really get sick of the way you fuck around with reason." ... "You're an intellectual coward, Tarc"]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=462260750 "Neo-nazis and living serial killers have more protection on project than established religions, at least according to your logic. it's patently absurd and deeply prejudiced."]

Although Ludwig2's behavior mirrored previous transgressions, the ANI discussion failed to reach a consensus, in part because editors who agree with Ludwig2's stance on content opposed topic-banning him. ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=458768220 read], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=458774024 please])

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ludwigs2&diff=next&oldid=459474041 November] vs.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad_images/Workshop&diff=prev&oldid=467917316 December]. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FCase%2FMuhammad_images%2FWorkshop&action=historysubmit&diff=468842487&oldid=468840566 Analysis].

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&oldid=467979357#Edit_request_on_15_December_2011 permalink].

He insists that Islam for dummies [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=459881726&oldid=459880737] is a good source because it's written by an academic (ignoring the audience), but when presented with some other books written by academics, JN466 disparages them as being written for students or young adults. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FCase%2FMuhammad_images%2FWorkshop&action=historysubmit&diff=468219711&oldid=468203069]

Enormously overstates an author's credentials as biographer of Muhammad,

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad_images/Workshop&diff=prev&oldid=467815079] (even after adjustment [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad_images/Workshop&diff=prev&oldid=467815274]); compare with [http://eprints.soas.ac.uk/3191/1/Schimmel.pdf] which makes no mention that she might even have written a biography of Muhammad, and the book cited by JN466 isn't one. [http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-His-Messenger-Veneration-Religion/product-reviews/0807841285] On the other hand, JN466 dismisses other specialist books that focus on paintings rather than Sufi prose/poetry. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=459881726&oldid=459880737]

Another example: JN466 notices the hylia by a modern calligrapher in Ernst's book on contemporary Islam

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad_images/Workshop&diff=prev&oldid=467127387], but says nothing of the Persian-style image of Ascension found later in the book (p. 196), and implies that such an image is absent from the book.

False assertion that anthropomorphic images played no public role.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad_images/Workshop&diff=prev&oldid=467306390]

Muhammad's Persian-style images weren't spared the printing press once that was invented. [http://books.google.com/books?id=sjLHirJmvPUC&pg=PA252]

Claims there is "prevalence of photographs of the Kaaba in reliable sources on Muhammad" [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=465567710] Evidence? If anything, English-language academic biographies tend to have no illustrations inside or are limited to maps. Similar pushing of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=469160493&oldid=469147665 two images of the Quran] JN466 forgets his strict sourcing standards and argues from his gut feeling.

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The number of pictures and unveiled pictures has increased by approximately 25% compared to the number of words since December 2006. Its worth noting that while the number of images was higher in March 2010, the added image was one of Muhammad in hell which was added by a now indefinitely blocked user [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad&diff=351387184&oldid=350830445#European_and_Western_views].

Muhammad is on the low side but it isn't outside the seemingly normal range of 30-60% or so.

Given the approximately half million words of discussion it should be fairly obvious there isn't a strong consensus over this matter in favour of the status quo.

• Former IP
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=465197040&oldid=465195893], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=465197715&oldid=465197040]
• Tarc
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=464443423&oldid=464443077] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456712138] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FCase%2FMuhammad_images%2FWorkshop&action=historysubmit&diff=468268641&oldid=468268263]
• Lesser issues on the same lines: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456724037] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=464827472&oldid=464826632] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FCase%2FMuhammad_images%2FEvidence&action=historysubmit&diff=467186529&oldid=467185924]
• Resolute
• Lesser, but along the same lines [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AWhat_Wikipedia_is_not&action=historysubmit&diff=459464503&oldid=459462631] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad_images/Workshop&curid=34146721&diff=468307379&oldid=468306807]

General battleground behavour.

• Tarc
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=464803341&oldid=464802174] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=464689967&oldid=464689466] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=464773111&oldid=464772643] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=465048603&oldid=465045455] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=465056860&oldid=465055790] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456712138] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456844181] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=464565193&oldid=464560546] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AWhat_Wikipedia_is_not&action=historysubmit&diff=458918556&oldid=458918497]
• Ludwigs
• Lesser [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=464495656&oldid=464494469] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=464385536&oldid=464383841] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=456773786]
• Johnbod
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=463352725&oldid=463352036]
• FormerIP
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=463602762&oldid=463601024 discussion leading up to this point between FormerIP and Jayen466]
• EggCentric
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FCase%2FMuhammad_images%2FWorkshop&action=historysubmit&diff=468617501&oldid=468614975] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FCase%2FMuhammad_images%2FWorkshop&action=historysubmit&diff=468617782&oldid=468617501]

Of course there's lies, damn lies and statistics, but even if you don't agree with the arguments thrust it seems like I didn't hear that to continually claim that the standard being asked for only applies to Muhammad.

• Tarc
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=464657879] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=465039925&oldid=465039302] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=465048603&oldid=465045455] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=464659139] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=464565193&oldid=464560546]

NPOV is a WP:PILLAR and is a non-negotiable policy. Therefore to discuss this in good faith it is legitimate to explain how your argument meets our neutrality policies.

• FormerIP
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FCase%2FMuhammad_images%2FWorkshop&action=historysubmit&diff=467286294&oldid=467283846 this point by Ludwigs and previous debate] Further poor understanding of the policy: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=463890502&oldid=463888893] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=463922868&oldid=463921549]

While I think offensiveness should be taken into account I have thought the best way to do that is to refer to sources for a while. Certainly since the start of my involvement at WT:NOT (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=461426589])

{{User:HersfoldArbClerkBot/Length header|word=150|diff=0|link=1}}

The substantive matter revolves around whether some images may be "offensive" and should be excluded on that ground. This is exactly what WP:CENSORED is meant to prevent, despite repeated claims that it is being misused when used for its primary function.

Besides: [http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20110223.gif]. — Coren ^(talk) 22:11, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

;@Jayen466:

The question is, then, whether the argument is exceptional in the case of this article. If the ratio of text to images, say, in Albert Einstein (I haven't actually checked the counts, I simply picked another article about a person I knew was well-illustrated) is comparable, why should that article be handled differently if not because of religious consideration? — Coren ^(talk) 01:06, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

;@Anthonyhcole

The problem is that "offensiveness" isn't a metric, it's an opinion. While there are processes on Wikipedia which are based on subjective evaluations (article grading and featured media come to mind), inclusion criteria aren't (nor should they be). — Coren ^(talk) 16:52, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

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I believe most involved editors are reasonable, albeit exhibiting different levels of flexibility in how we present the article. Ludwigs, however, seems intent on making this into a war of attrition. His behaviour can only be classified as an attempt at wearing down his opposition, and he does so by repeating the same arguments ad nauseum, regardless of how many times he fails to gain support for his position. These diffs are only a small number of each argument:

• "The images aren't real": [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&diff=456775112&oldid=456773786 Oct 21], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=460024472 Nov 10], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&diff=463676953&oldid=463669869 Dec 3], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=465038547 Dec 9]
• "They are trivial":[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&diff=458158493&oldid=458154263 Oct 30], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=458902301 Nov4, basis of his RFC], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=465678644&oldid=465676306 Dec 13]

Ludwigs has made it clear that he will continue to push this until he gets his way. He even admits that a ban is likely in his future:

• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ludwigs2&diff=next&oldid=457256607 "But don't worry; knowing that I'm eventually going to get kicked off the project (and knowing why that's going to happen, if not when) is freeing."]
• Re: his own behaviour: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALudwigs2&action=historysubmit&diff=457091977&oldid=457091312 "B.C., be realistic. I am toast sooner or later, regardless."]

Ludwigs is engaging in this argument with the expectation of being martyred, and consequently has been a constant obstruction to the process. His battleground mentality was already covered by ASCIIn2Bme, and his habit of forcing the discussion in circles has simply wasted dozens, if not hundreds, of hours of time. Even one of his biggest supporters recognizes that Ludwigs' actions are disruptive: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALudwigs2&action=historysubmit&diff=463682944&oldid=463151382]. Said editor came to agree that a topic ban is necessary: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALudwigs2&action=historysubmit&diff=465253348&oldid=465122421].

While other parties will show evidence against other editors, some of whom likely could/should be admonished for it, I believe that topic banning Ludwigs from discussions on these images will be enough to allow the community to come to a consensus. Certainly we had much better and more productive discussions at Talk:Muhammad/Images while Ludwigs was on his self-imposed hiatus from that page, but his return obliterated every effort at creating a framework to resolve the issue I attempted to broker. Resolute 00:10, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

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For context and reference, the original post I made that started this dispute: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad&action=historysubmit&diff=456517266&oldid=456510462 observation about the Foundation resolution]

Initial Conditions

• Use of a subpage to ghettoize complaints So they would not be visible to those watching the article itself. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=425707004&oldid=425702796]
• Use of header templates to explicitly block discussion:

  Prior discussion has determined that pictures of Muhammad are allowed and will not be removed from this article

• First six responses to my original post, reflecting anti-Islamic sentiments, and broad refusal to engage discussion
• #[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad&diff=next&oldid=456517266 This may come as a surprise to you, but Wikipedia does not cater exclusively to Muslims.]
• #[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad&diff=next&oldid=456520290 Common practice in the Muslim community shouldn't create any expectations on the contents of an encyclopedia.]
• #[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad&diff=next&oldid=456520849 Furthermore, your argument contains false assumptions: that all readers of this article are Muslim, and that all Muslims are offended by images. Neither of those assumptions is true so your reasoning is false.]
• #[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad&diff=next&oldid=456521332 I was impressed that Wikipedia refused to cave in to the demands of a minority.]
• # [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad&diff=next&oldid=456529474 discussion collapsed]
• #*my second post, after uncollapse:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad&diff=prev&oldid=456567083]
• # [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad&diff=next&oldid=456567083 I expect encyclopedias to give no credence to religious perspectives and sensibilities. I'm of the impression that the overwhelming majority, if not all, of the "astonishment" registered on this page is from Muslim editors.]

Statements hostile to Muslims, Muslim editors, or religion in general

Tarc:Note the hostility in Tarc's [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456702477 first post to the thread], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456845805 muslims as a 'vocal minority']

RobertMfromLi:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456858992], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=456859363 Wikipedia becomes Islamopedia - or (...) Religopedia], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456958314 the only (ie: real) reason for this RfC is to coddle those who wish to try to take policies and apply them as means of removing all of the images], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=457253214 asserting Muslim editors want to remove all images]

Kww:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456859554], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=457252288]

DocTropics:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=456866048Agreeing with the Islamop[edia comment]

Assertions of bad faith

Tarc:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456706787], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456712138], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456724037], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456792942], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=457058645]

Amatulic:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456716362]

Resolute:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456844181], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456905675], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=457049831 Don't let Ludwigs pick yet another fight]

RobertMfromLi:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=457054722], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=457230131 claiming that I believe we should adhere to Muslim beliefs]

Attempts to force-terminate discussion or disrupt DR

Resolute:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456717354 consensus holds that...]

RobertMfromLi:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456780402 community has already decided on this...],[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456887863], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=457028765]

Tarc:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456780476 the matter is already resolved], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=457046126]

Yopienso:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456868351]

Resolute:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456913858], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456923976]

hyperbolic extremes

RobertMfromLi:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=457013110]

claim that NOTCENSORED is the most important policy

RobertMfromLi:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456866996]

diffs added to demonstrate that I am acting in good faith

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=456828160], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=457029899], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=next&oldid=457085414]

This is only through October 24th (I ran out of time and patience with this nonsense), but this should demonstrate the obstructionism and hostility used on the page to squelch the consensus process. --Ludwigs2 07:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

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;Foundation resolution

• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad&diff=prev&oldid=456517266 link]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad&diff=next&oldid=456560964 link]

;Religious concerns

• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=459370419&oldid=459369514 link]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=463228360&oldid=463228288 link]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=463326902&oldid=463324868 link]

;Not really images of Muhammad

• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=460024472&oldid=460017598 link]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=460092416&oldid=460091992 link]

Time and time and time again, Ludwigs has accused other editors of having racist motivations if they express an opinion that they wish to keep the present # of images in the article, or if they feel "offense to Muslims" should not be a concern of the project.

• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=463355167&oldid=463351121 link]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=456773786 link]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=457690141 link]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=458467459 link]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=460303753&oldid=460303689 link]

This goes to the heart of WP:BATTLE and WP:CONSENSUS; numerous statements that boil down to "if I judge your argument to be inferior, then I can ignore it". The practical implementation of this is that Ludwigs will ignore the consensus of the Wikipedia community if he judges that consensus to be based on (in his opinion) a flawed or faulty rationale.

• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=463341603&oldid=463339821 link]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=463347635&oldid=463347252 link]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=463358486&oldid=463355167 link]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=457045940 link]
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&diff=465498186&oldid=465487334 link] (this was from the Arbcom case statement)
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=460364013&oldid=460363096 link]

Incredibly, Ludwigs has continued to denigrate and slur other editors during the Arbcom proceedings. When given opportunity to clarify or retract, he just reiterates.

• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad_images/Evidence&diff=467513201&oldid=467491221 link]

A new section at the Workshop talk page. This gist of this latest one is that Ludwigs believes himself to be smarter than anyone else in the room ("My flaw here...is that I am stubbornly intelligent"), where if he hears an argument that, to him, sounds racist, ("It is an observable fact that you regularly make statements that can easily be interpreted as anti-Islamic") then that person must defend himself. All of this ignores the tiny fact that no one, in any point of these discussions, has ever made a statement that could be construed as racist. If someone has, we have yet to be presented the evidence.

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I would like to present evidence that User:Hans Adler engaged in disruptive editing as well, by attempting to poison the well, by speculating on the motives of others, and assuming that anyone who disagreed with him had racist motives. I was involved in the images debate in early November, and I ended up pulling myself out of it, partly because I was unwilling to deal with the aforementioned accusations that took place on AN/I.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=458774024&oldid=458773551 #1] Hans begins with the minor attack on me by claiming that my behavior was "not the worst." [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=458774683&oldid=458774329 My response] was that I had always done my very best to be civil and if I had breached that then he should provide diffs - no diffs would come of course, because incivility is really not my style. I then restated my position on the topic at hand and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=458777979&oldid=458777044 Hans responded] with the false dichotomy that I was either unable to comprehend policy or I must purposely be trying to insult Islam. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=458778692&oldid=458778449 My response] was again to request that he provide diffs of my behavior since he skipped over that part and I once again attempted to provide an argument for my position rather than let who I am or who Hans is have anything to do with what is supposed to be a discussion. Finally I simply stated that he should either redact his attack on me or provide diffs and he never responded.

Later in the same thread, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=458797176&oldid=458796031 Hans goes on] to state that the only explanation for the editors disagreeing with him is that they must have a disease in the autism spectrum disorder.

I'm sure there is more in that [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive727#User_talk:Ludwigs2_on_Talk:Muhammad.2Fimages AN/I report] but I think this gives an idea of the way that Hans thinks and acts and how it is not conducive to academic discourse, nor to building this encyclopedia.

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Sorry I am late to the party. Most of the evidence and such has been presented above - and the guilty parties have been pointed out as well. I wish to comment on another matter, which I am too late to comment on over at the Arbitration Case page. Inotherwords, here's the comments I would have put on the Arb page before it was opened, had I the chance.

In following the Muhammad page for a long time, I see an ongoing pattern that is pushing me to the point of leaving Wikipedia entirely. The article in question is already the subject of NUMEROUS compromises to honor religious beliefs. Every few months, a few editors come back, make a stink about the images, and hammer out yet another compromise (slowly winning the war to censor the article). This is getting tiring - and going against the intent of Wikipedia to be secular on such matters. This entire thing is a part of that ongoing battle (no, not Reso's, Anthony's and Jayen's work - which I support and mostly agree with). And IT NEEDS TO STOP

• The page has disclaimers (TONS of them)
• The page has FAQs
• The page has a sub-page for image complaints
• The page, though it is a BIOGRAPHY and NOT an article on religion is not being treated as such - as one for instance, instead of having an image of the BIOGRAPHY'S subject, we have a piece of calligraphy which was created to NOT represent the subject - thus having the exact opposite effect.
• The page no longer has any depictions of Muhammad in the first 3rd+
• Religious views keep getting trumped out to remove images that dont follow a certain sect of Islam (which end up being non-veiled images)

Should I go on? Screw the compromises - to put it bluntly. And here's why - for those who have forgotten: THIS IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA. This is NOT a religious site. The article is NOT a religious article. This site is SUPPOSEDLY against religious or political biases motivating content inclusion or removal.

Next, what's trumped out most recently is "let's do what Brittanica (or others) does" - screw that too. Wikipedia is supposed to be BETTER than such, with LESS constraints and LESS biases (due to paid readership, sponsors or whatever).

ALL of it boils back down to religious offense. I've patiently waited some semblance of reason that simply creates a policy that allows editors to summarily ignore any such content arguments that go back to religious or political beliefs - but instead, we are sliding the wrong direction - and, I'm feeling less inclined on coming back here. I don't care what the political party or religion - we need to stop catering to ALL of them.

ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 01:15, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

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{{Hat}}

As people have linked the other responses I would also like to include the behavior pointed at myself.

These direct quotes make up the bulk of what was said against myself and I will include any resolutions if there was a request (such as an apology expected after certain comments.)

"I still assert that you can only make such an extreme dichotomy from a position of deep prejudice, in which you refuse to allow religions even one iota of respect (for personal reasons of your own, assumedly). that's not acceptable on a collaborative project."

"Tivanir2:I'm sorry if you took this personally - not my intent. To my way of viewing things one can easily hold a prejudice without being prejudiced. It's usually just a matter of not having thought things through." (justification of position above)

"LMAO: see, this is exactly what I'm talking about - you guys are pure unadulterated advocates. Tarc doesn't feel the need to explain his position but argues for it endlessly regardless, Tivanir2 wants to recast an article as a pure biography just to avoid dealing with cultural issues, Amatulić bases his argument on interpretation of scripture and refuses to allow any other interpretation to be considered. If I had to judge solely by your behavior I'd have to think you were died-in-the-wool religious fanatics determined to cast your faith in the 'correct' light."

Most other comments I would post are already included by other editors but those are the bulk dealing with me just on speculation I am somehow prejudice.

{{Hab}}

• I have collapsed your evidence because you have not included any diffs. You must substantiate all evidence with diffs to the comments you have quoted, so that we can authenticate your submission. If you do not add diffs to your evidence, it may be removed entirely. Thank you, AGK [•] 01:08, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

:My apologies I wasn't aware diffs were required so I opted for direct quotes. Diffs inclue http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=458496240&oldid=458492492, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=458510954&oldid=458503361, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad%2Fimages&action=historysubmit&diff=458651712&oldid=458651253. Tivanir2 (talk) 23:46, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

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I don't take kindly to being portrayed as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=458127224 unethical and autistic], nor do I think that portraying the motivation of his opposition as being to "[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=456818188 defend their vested right to humiliate Muslims]" falls within the range of collegial editing.—Kww(talk) 18:01, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

:* His edits on [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Buddhism&oldid=213112044 Talk:Buddhism] from 2008 set the tone: enormous walls of text, superficially reasonable, but apparently dedicated to the proposition that Buddhism is not a religion.

:* At [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jesus_myth_theory&diff=prev&oldid=214250425 Jesus Myth theory], he proceeds to emphasise quotes from Christians affirming the existence of Christ.

:* His [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Quackwatch&diff=prev&oldid=216093522 first comment at Talk:QuackWatch] includes defense of quack medicines, a trend which will continue

:* His attempt to elevate quack medicinal processes continues [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alternative_medicine&diff=prev&oldid=218314595][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alternative_medicine&diff=prev&oldid=218470801]

:* Not even patent nonsense such as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Remote_viewing&diff=prev&oldid=218520315 remote viewing] escapes his support.

:* By the time we get to Intelligent Design, we get to full-blown Ludwigs2: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Intelligent_design&diff=prev&oldid=222896084 fighting, complete with references to IDHT]].

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Follow_the_principle_of_least_astonishment&oldid=470467835 —Kww(talk) 13:25, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

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The article has from 2005 shown an abnormal treatment of images for a biography. Despite [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Depictions_of_Muhammad an abundance of images of Muhammad being available], only very few have been used, and these placed increasingly lower down the page, starting on my 5th screen down. If there were no religious concerns we would certainly have more, and they would be differently placed. We always use more images than "other sources" who have to pay for picture rights; nor do "other sources" share our policies of NPOV and against censorship, and commercial publishers have been terrified of potential offence to Muslims since Satanic Verses in 1988. In Wikipedia, the obvious comparator, Jesus, has 46 images, 37 including a depiction of Jesus and 9 not. Muhammad has 25 images, 6 depictions, 10 calligraphy (already too many imo) and 9 other - and also long unillustrated sections. The shorter Buddha has 14 images, 12 including him and 2 not. So percentages of total images showing the subject are: Muhammad 15%; Jesus 81%; Buddha 86%. Comparisons to Jesus and Buddha are also relevant to the "not historical portraits" and "not typical" arguments advanced above some. Nor are conventional images of Jesus and Buddha based on any authentic likennesses, though there are verbal ones for Buddha and Muhammad but not Jesus. The plethora of images of Jesus we show nearly all come from the narrow period of Renaissance/Baroque Roman Catholicism, and are far from representative of the broad history of Christianity, and obviously don't reflect the objection many Protestant churches still have to such images, and all once had. Probably some Protestants are still offended by such imagery, though not as violently as their 16th century forbears, but realize it would be pointless to object. Objectors also ignore that all the images used are not "portrait" images, but illustrate important narrative incidents from the life; Eraserhead's highly selective tables take no account of this. Appropriate illustration of narrative incidents is normally considered good without question; suddenly its value is dismssed here with no evidence or informed consideration of the issues.

Despite this, there is no recognition by many of the compromise already in place, and more is demanded. The article already breaches the principle of least astonishment by having so few images and in view of the WMF board's pronouncement should go no further in this direction. Johnbod (talk) 17:57, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

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ArbCom will presumably suggest a calm, orderly and informed process for seeking the community's views on the use of images and coming to a binding conclusion. My only comments here, beyond the need to look at appropriate secondary sources, are that a similar issue has occupied directors of Islamic collections in major museums in the world in the last one or two years. In particular, in addition to the British Library, the Bibliothèque Nationale de France and collections in the Near East, there are the newly established Museum of Islamic Art, Doha (financed by the Aga Khan) and new Islamic sections in the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the Pergamon Museum of Islamic Art. Almost all these museums have chosen to exhibit a limited number of illuminated manuscripts containing images of Muhammad.

At the beginning of November 2011, there was a lengthy thread on Ludwigs2 at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive727#User talk:Ludwigs2 on Talk:Muhammad/images. There had been a prior report concerning Talk:Pregnancy and at WP:AE concerning Astrology, where he was topic banned for 6 months under ArbCom discretionary sanctions. A parallel discussion on historical images started on User talk:Jimbo Wales, where I added comments on secondary sources on Persian miniatures (Ernst J. Grube and Omid Safi). Those discussions surprisingly resulted in a way forward in selecting images based on sources and I started participating in a minor way on Talk:Muhammad/Images.

Ludwigs2 does not primarily add content to wikipedia: his editing history indicates that he has preferred to enter problematic off-beat areas often with his own ready-made solutions. In this particular case his initial stated view in March 2011 was that there should be no depictions of Muhammad, although he has subsequently shown some willingness to compromise. In March and later after October, he spent most of his time arguing against those who did not support that point of view. He has stated that he believes there is an ideological divide between editors pro and anti images. Ludwigs2's main activity on wikipedia in 2011 has been to engage in heated debate with his perceived opponents, several of them experienced administrators. At no stage has he discussed a secondary source. Instead he has indulged persistently in point-scoring and unduly personalised responses, seeking to portray his opponents as lacking the intellectual capacity to make a rational argument, or worse. The failure to use sources, but rely on himself as the ultimate unquestioned resource, seems incompatible with the way wikipedia articles are written. Here is a selection of diffs that illustrate this problematic approach. I have not looked in depth at other users: my first impression is that Tarc is one of the main editors targeted by Ludwigs2 and that he sometimes responds in kind.

• all: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad_images/Workshop&diff=468471536&oldid=468309552][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%20talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=462475868][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%20talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=462440506][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=460355825][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=460200887][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=460092416][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=459324441][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=458930261][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad&diff=prev&oldid=420076573][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=458467459][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=456834720]
• Allanscottwalker: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=465077424]
• Amatulic: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=421374728][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=421509258][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=421442275]
• BladeoftheNorthernLights:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=458393001]
• FormerIP: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=465201215]
• GoodDay: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=460312697][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=460305947]
• Johnbod: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=457690141]
• JoHutton: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=456777689]
• Kww:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%20talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=462449698][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%20talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=462358382][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%20talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=462283444][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=459367902][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad&diff=prev&oldid=456681179][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=420527381]
• Resolute:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=460178269][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=459056548][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=459047801][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=456704856]
• RobertMFromLi: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=460293601][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=459025644][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=459020243][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=464311070][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=458510954][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=457254714][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=457706391]
• Tarc: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=459394084][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%20talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=463148777][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%20talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=463115138][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%20talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=463058630][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%20talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=462474184][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=464475557][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=464451420]
• Thryduulf: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%20talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=463389552][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%20talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=462348210]
• Tivanir2: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%20talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=prev&oldid=462195067]
• Will Beback: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%20talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=459617890]

This problematic conduct has continued in a similar but slightly different form on the ArbCom pages and the clerk's talk page.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad_images/Workshop&curid=34146721&diff=467909754&oldid=467908400]

{{User:HersfoldArbClerkBot/Length header|word=468|diff=9|link=2}}

My proposals

WP:GRATUITOUS says, when multiple options are equally effective at portraying a concept, Wikipedia does not retain the most offensive options merely to "show off" its ability to include possibly offensive materials. Take Muhammad#Childhood_and_early_life. It tells the story of a sacred black stone and is illustrated by an image that will be offensive to most Muslims and adds nothing to the reader's understanding of the event. There is an alternative image, a photograph of the actual stone, which is at least as informative about the subject, and is not offensive. I opened a thread with the intention of proposing this alternative on the talk page but was shouted down. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=prev&oldid=465553927#Black_stone_image] I was described as disingenuous and sly, and petulant for objecting to being called disingenuous and sly. I had encountered this kind of rudeness and refusal to discuss soon after joining in the conversation, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=458066379&oldid=458066328] so at this point [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&diff=465557443&oldid=465551702 I gave up] editing that page.

However, I believe this is an example where we can legitimately take offensiveness into account, without harming the educational value of the encyclopedia, and so should. But many editors refuse to take offensiveness into account under any circumstances.

Thoughts on offensive content

• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FCase%2FMuhammad_images%2FEvidence&action=historysubmit&diff=467106510&oldid=467092193 JN466] "Offensiveness is indeed irrelevant."
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=464314869&oldid=464311155 Amatulic] "offending people should never be a consideration when building encyclopedic content"
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=461148786&oldid=461145683 Tarc][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=461186519&oldid=461182601] "Simply "being offensive", an arguable point in itself, will never be an acceptable reason to remove an image from an article." "Offense is simply not a concern."
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&diff=465197715&oldid=465197040 Former IP] "There is a community consensus [...] against any proposal that seeks to minimise the risk of the article causing offence."
• [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad_images/Evidence&diff=467092193&oldid=467090745 Coren ] "The substantive matter revolves around whether some images may be "offensive" and should be excluded on that ground. This is exactly what WP:CENSORED is meant to prevent ..."

It seems to me that never considering offensiveness when curating content, as WP:NOTCENSORED is said to demand, is a socially incompetent perspective, inimical to our mission.

Dealing with offensive behaviour

I deal with it by simply leaving the topic, and finding one where I don't have to experience it. Most people do; or they leave the project. Ludwigs2 takes it on, and look where that gets him. The project has a problem. It is so toxic that virtually no scholars involve themselves with it, and regular editors are leaving in droves. The Foundation in its [http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Openness April 2011 resolution on openness] urges us to reduce contention and promote a friendlier, more collaborative culture, to discourage disruptive and hostile behavior, and repel trolls and stalkers.

The RfC was too early. I opposed it. Respondents clearly displayed confusion about the resolution's meaning, and about whether it addressed this project and whether we're obliged to follow it. All of these points need to be made very clear, particularly its actual meaning, before this can be profitably put before an RfC. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Follow_the_principle_of_least_astonishment&oldid=470724655#RfC_threaded_discussion]

{{User:HersfoldArbClerkBot/Length header|word=242|diff=42|link=2}}

• History of NOTCENSORED analysed here.
• Some Christians feel offended by classifying Genesis as "myth", though many scholars use "creation myth" freely. Numerous disputes about this since January 2009. Normal editorial decisions based on WP:RNPOV. WP:NOTCENSORED only invoked to enforce reasonable discussion.
• Focus on WP:NOTCENSORED at autofellatio keeps weird photo at top of page, not moved down in favour of drawing from :commons:Category:Drawings of autofellatio.
• Pregnancy dispute at archives 4–7 escalated by militant anti-censors until Jimbo's RfC closure.
• Legitimate NOTCENSORED use for Virgin Killer controversy and actual attack from outside against Muhammad images on Wikipedia (early 2008 [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/books/05wiki.html]).

Got involved after 27 hours / 28 posts (10 editors). 30%–50% of edits since then related to dispute, mostly escalating / battleground type. Overall quality constant, so analysis restricted to October.

All 46 relevant October edits except typo corrections and such:

• {{userContribs2|Tarc|3|1–3|2011|10|21|1708}}
• {{userContribs2|Tarc|7|4–13|2011|10|21|1843}}
• {{diff2|456875648|14}}, {{diff2|456879111|15}} (14 is first constructive edit)
• {{diff2|457049831|16}}, {{diff2|457059245|17}}
• {{diff2|457087126|18}}, {{diff2|457090636|19}}
• {{diff2|457245952|20}}, {{diff2|457262266|21}}, {{diff2|457262656|22}} (21 {{diff2|457263219|removed after 22}})
• {{userContribs2|Tarc|4|23–26|2011|10|25|1220}}
• {{diff2|457702648|27}}, {{diff2|457733990|28}}
• {{userContribs2|Tarc|3|29–31|2011|10|28|1322}}, {{diff2|457869723|32}}
• {{diff2|457900565|33}}, {{diff2|457918075|34}}, {{userContribs2|Tarc|4|35–38|2011|10|29|1608}} (37 {{diff2|458008830|struck after 38}}; 38 creates new section)
• {{diff2|458045015|39}}, {{userContribs2|Tarc|4|40–41|2011|10|30|0223}}
• {{diff2|458141749|42}}, {{diff2|458171742|43}}, {{diff2|458186575|44}}, {{diff2|458209336|45}}, {{diff2|458227958|46}}

3, 5, 18 are on UT:Tarc; 10, 12 on WP:WQA; 19 at Arbcom. Others on Talk:Muhammad/Images.

Later examples: {{diff2|461201060|A}} {{diff2|463701015|B}} {{diff2|463722739|C}} {{diff2|464095089|D}} {{diff2|464274795|E}} {{diff2|464317393|F}} {{diff2|464335944|G}} {{diff2|464443423|H}} {{diff2|464565193|J}} {{diff2|464689466|K}} {{diff2|464827472|L}} {{diff2|465056860|M}}.

Evidence of unconstructive behaviour not strong, but seems necessary in my defence for calling him not one of the worst. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad/images&oldid=458736840 Page state] at report time. Diffs: {{diff2|458395546}} {{diff2|458409505}} {{diff2|458492492}} {{diff2|458549808}} {{diff2|458691487}} {{diff2|458729686}}. Nothing relevant between {{diff2|458733334|0:43 ultimatum}} and (tendentious) {{diff2|458736826|1:11 report}}? Hans Adler 12:19, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

{{User:HersfoldArbClerkBot/Length header|word=53|diff=1|link=0}}

Offering an example of IP {{user| 96.241.54.85 }} trolling the Elonka Dunin page, in a way that is obviously related to this case (see edit summary).[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Elonka_Dunin&diff=470761622&oldid=466591463 ] I'm not sure if the arbs would like to run a checkuser on it, but I thought I'd mention it here in case it's helpful. --Elonka 20:37, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

before using the last evidence template, please make a copy for the next person

Place argument and diffs which support your assertion; for example, your first assertion might be "So-and-so engages in edit warring", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits to specific articles which show So-and-so engaging in edit warring.

Place argument and diffs which support the second assertion; for example, your second assertion might be "So-and-so makes personal attacks", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits where So-and-so made personal attacks.