Login
Login

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gatineau Park Protection Committee

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. JohnCD (talk) 17:09, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

=[[Gatineau Park Protection Committee]]=

:{{la|Gatineau Park Protection Committee}} – (View AfD)(View log)

:({{findsources|Gatineau Park Protection Committee}})

This organization does not meet WP:ORG notability requirements. The organization has been mentioned in media articles, but only as "incidental coverage" in articles on other subjects. Furthermore the article was created by and predominantly written by a self-described member of the organization which is the subject of the article. As can best be discerned, the organization is informal in nature, is not registered or incorporated, has no headquarters, publications or website and has only two members. The article has been identified has having serious WP:NPOV and WP:COI issues and has been used predominately as a vehicle to attack the political opponents of the subject of the article, in lieu of the organization itself having a website. Removing all the POV content would result in a very short stub. An in depth review of the article's notability by an admin resulted in a recommendation to delete as non-notable. Talk:New Woodlands Preservation League contains a complete discussion of these issues. Ahunt (talk) 15:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

:Note: see also WP:Articles for deletion/New Woodlands Preservation League. -M.Nelson (talk) 16:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. What about the article Politics of Gatineau Park, which seems to involve the same editor and seems to share COI and POV problems? Racepacket (talk) 15:40, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

:Reply to question: as mentioned at Talk:New Woodlands Preservation League, I have asked the same admin to review that article as well and make recommendations. - Ahunt (talk) 15:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

  • Keep Well, I guess you interpret notability very subjectively. The two organizations have: 1) completely changed the official historical interpretation of Gatineau Park; 2) convinced parliamentarians to table 7 bills in both houses of parliament to protect Gatineau Park--and authored the first draft of those bills; 3) disclosed profound managerial problems at the NCC; 4)secured rightful federal ownership of 61.5 sq. km of land in Gatineau Park--thereby completely debunking the myth of "Gatineau Park is not a national park because Quebec refuses to transfer the lands"...; 5) managed to get the NCC to produce the first-ever published technical description of Gatineau Park's boundaries; 6)pressured the government into adopting 2 orders in council to deal with private property in Gatineau Park (thereby stopping a major residential development); 7)placed Gatineau Park protection on the government's legislative agenda;8)wrote a legislative review on Bill C-37 which has been used extensively by the Bloc Québécois in the Commons, and by the Conservatives in the Senate; 9) informed public opinion by writing in the press; 10)informed public opinion by helping set the media agenda on the issue and by being quoted extensively.

:They are not only incidental media references. The groups were usually behind breaking the news--such as disclosing a planned residential development inside Gatineau Park; such as revealing the NCC has mislead the public over the history of Gatineau Park, etc.

:And what have you done for your country lately? Not notable? By whose definition?

:: by Wikipedia's definition, specifically this part. PKT(alk) 00:21, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

:The groups are clearly notable. The article should stay.--Stoneacres (talk) 16:04, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

::Can you provide reliable, third-party, published sources that chronicle these achievements? -M.Nelson (talk) 16:41, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

  • Delete as per nom, it was I that reviewed the article and the related New Woodlands Preservation League and recommended deletion. I have no dispute that the organisation exists and has an admirable purpose but I failed to find any significant secondary coverage of either organisation. Although campaigns by the two individuals identified with the group have been referenced (although mainly COI self references) these are already mentioned in the Politics of Gatineau Park. It is not the only organisation campaigning about the park but COI editing means none of the Gatineau Park articles have a balanced point of view from all involved. This is an article about the New Woodlands Preservation League/Gatineau Park Protection Committee and such fails to provide any significant coverage of the notability of that organisation. MilborneOne (talk) 17:51, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

::Below is a sample of the press covering their efforts, as well as excerpts from a speech by NCC chair Marcel Beaudry.

{{{!}} class="navbox collapsible {{#if:||collapsed}}" style="text-align: left; border: 1px solid silver; margin-top: 0.2em;"

{{!}}-

! style="background-color: #CFC;" {{!}} Extended content

{{!}}-

{{!}} style="border: solid 1px silver; padding: 8px; background-color: white; " {{!}}

Notes pour une allocution de Marcel Beaudry, président de la Commission de la capitale nationale, à l’occasion de l’inauguration de la Salle Roderick Percy Sparks, Le vendredi 8 juillet 2005, Centre des visiteurs du parc de la Gatineau, 10 h 30

“I would like to take this opportunity to thank the New Woodlands Preservation League, especially Mr. Andrew MacDermott and Mr. Jean-Paul Murray, for highlighting the role of Mr. Sparks during our various public meetings and our meeting with the NCC Board of Directors. As a result of their comments, we commissioned a study to examine the influence of interest groups and the socio-political context around the Park’s creation.

“Mr. Murray more particularly, was involved and consulted throughout the process and as a result of the study, we are here today to recognize the important role of Roderick Percy Sparks in the establishment of this magnificent national treasure.”

Broadbent Acts on Park, By Mike Caesar, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, November 9—Nov. 15, 2005, p. 3.

Senator pushes to preserve Gatineau Park: Legislation would prevent sale of parts of property By Dave Rogers, Ottawa Citizen, January 17, 2006, p. B2.

Chelsea resident instrumental in Senate bill to protect Gatineau Park By Julie Murray, The West Quebec Post, January 27, 2006, p. 9.

Give NCC more power, chairman says: Beaudry tells review panel agency should have greater say in planning of capital region, By Patrick Dare, Ottawa Citizen, November 10, 2006. p. F1. Mentions McDermott, Murray and NWPL.

NCC Anarchy Lambasted. By Rowan Lomas, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, November 15, 2006, pp.1-2. Mentions Murray, Mc Dermott and the League (and their presentation before the NCC mandate review panel as the NWPL).

Gatineau Park bill passes second reading, by Ian Lordon, Low Down to Hull and Back News, December 20-January 2, 2007, pp. 1-2. Mentions Murray and the League.

Hello election, goodbye Gatineau Park bill, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, April 18-24, 2007, p. 12. Mentions Murray and the League.

Gatineau Park bill ‘gutted’ by Tories, by Ian Lordon, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, July 11-17, 2007, pp. 1-2. Mentions Murray and the League.

Don’t ban Gatineau Park land sales: Cannon Minister says Senate bill ties NCC’s hands; selloffs fly in face of ‘master plan,’ critic says, by William Lin, The Ottawa Citizen, Friday, July 13, 2007, pp. F1 and F7. Mentions Murray and the League.

A5 extension to run through Gatineau Park: activist, by Josh Clipperton, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, Sept.26-Oct.2, 2007, p. 3. Mentions Murray and the League.

Activist wrong, A5 won’t touch Gatineau Park, letters, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, Oct. 10 – Oct. 16, 2007, page 5. Response from Minister Lawrence Cannon to NWPL on Highway 5.

Parkland ownership a puzzler; NCC, federal, Quebec governments bicker over part of Gatineau Park. By Dave Rogers, Ottawa Citizen, January 22, 2008, p. B1. Mentioning Murray in his role as park activist, i.e., as NWPL member.

NCC unaware of Gatineau Park housing plan; Owners have right to build, Chelsea mayor says, By Dave Rogers, Ottawa Citizen, January 25, 2008, p. H1. Mentioning Murray in his role as park activist, i.e., as NWPL member.

This land is your land, this land is our land, from Lac La Peche, to Hull’s French CEGEP: NCC, activist in dispute over who owns Park land, By Rachel Dares, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, Jan. 30-Feb. 5, 2008, p. 1-19. Mentioning Murray and NWPL.

NCC unaware of Gatineau Park development. By Rachel Dares, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, Jan. 30-Feb. 5, 2008, p. 3. Mentioning Murray and NWPL.

Gatineau Park boundaries laid out in Bill S-227. By Rachel Dares, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, March 5-11, 2008, p. 2. Mentioning Murray in his role as park activist, i.e., as NWPL member.

Gatineau Park supporters lobby minister to step in, By Dave Rogers, The Ottawa Citizen, March 7, 2008, p. F3. Mentioning Murray as member of the Gatineau Park Protection Coalition, i.e., as NWPL member.

Bill to boost park’s status urged, By Laura Czekaj, The Ottawa Sun, April 3, 2008, p. 21. Mentioning Murray as member of the Gatineau Park Protection Coalition, i.e., as NWPL member.

Gatineau Park plea rattles NCC meeting, By Katie Daubs, Ottawa Citizen, April 5, 2008, p. D-1. About a speech Murray made as NWPL president before the NCC board. “Everything was going according to plan until Jean-Paul Murray got up to speak… It was Thursday night, and interest groups were having their annual chance to make a presentation to the National Capital Commission’s board of directors. .. The meeting had the air of a Toastmasters session as each presentation was timed with a red light… Then Mr. Murray got up to speak. When he finished his five-minute plea to stop private development in Gatineau Park, the Panorama Room at the National Arts Centre erupted in applause.“

Mobilisation à Chelsea. Le Droit, 8 avril 2008, p. 4. About Murray and the League.

Gatineau Park group calls for development freeze. CBC Radio Ottawa. April 8, 2008. Mentioning Murray as member of the Gatineau Park Protection Coalition, i.e., as NWPL member. “Jean-Paul Murray of the Gatineau Park Protection Coalition told the meeting that the National Capital Commission should enact a law forbidding any development in the park.”

Gatineau Park is like “Swiss cheese”: private landowner. By Rachel Dares, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, April 9-April 15, 2008, p. 3. Mentioning Murray and NWPL.

Group argues for legal protection of Gatineau Park. By Patrick Dare, The Ottawa Citizen, April 22, 2008, p. D3. Mentioning Murray and NWPL.

NCC buys former Carman Trails site to stop development. By Rachel Dares, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, May 28-June 3, 2008, p. 7. Mentioning Murray as member of the Gatineau Park Protection Coalition, i.e., as NWPL member.

Gatineau Park would cost ‘significantly more’ as national park. Monday, July 28, 2008, CBC News. Interview with Murray as park activist, i.e., as NWPL member.

Parc de la Gatineau, Le Téléjournal de Radi-Canada (Ottawa), le 28 juillet 2008. TV interview with GPPC member Jean-Paul Murray over the mudding of Meech Lake.

Too much Meech mud . By Laura Czekaj, The Ottawa Sun, July 29, 2008, p. 4. (Also broadcast on the Canadian Press News Wire and picked up by the North Bay Nugget). Quotes Coalition member Murray, ergo as member of NWPL.

Federal investigation launched into environmental damage at Meech Lake, CPW, July 29, 2008 (Published in the North Bay Nugget, July 29, p. A4, with title: “Feds investigate Meech Lake damage: Lake treated like ‘garbage’ can – coalition”). Quotes Coalition member Murray, ergo as member of NWPL.

Group fears new homes are muddying Meech, By Jean-François Bertrand, The Ottawa Citizen, July 29, 2008, p. C-1. Quotes Coalition member Murray, ergo as member of NWPL.

“‘On paper’ group says it does heavy lifting to protect park: another Gatineau Park Senate bill tabled,” by Cynthia Vukets, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, Feb. 11-Feb.17, 2009, p. 7. Profiles NWPL.

NCC, Quebec in tax fight: Bickering over who should pay property taxes on CEGEP, Lac la Pêche land, by Laura Czekaj, Ottawa Sun, March 17, 2008, p.14. Quotes Murray as GPPC co-chair.

“Quebec drops tax fight with NCC: Resolution reached over payments for land bordering Gatineau Park,” by John Willing, the Ottawa Sun, March 21, 2009. Quotes McDermott as GPPC co-chair.

“Watchdog claims victory in spat over portion of Gatineau Park: Disputed land at CÉGEP belongs to province,” by Laura Payton, The Ottawa Citizen, March 22, 2009, p. A5. Quotes McDermott as GPPC co-chair.

Fin d’une longue dispute, Radio rock détente, Gatineau, le 23 mars 2009 Source : Info Astral Media

« La fin d'un méli-mélo au lac La Pêche», par Charles Thériault, Le Droit, le 28 mars 2009, p. 22.

“Ottawa MP tables motion to protect Gatineau Park,” The Low Down to Hull and Back News, April 29-May 5, 2009, p. 5.

“Surprising moves,” by Nikki Mantell, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, May 13-19, 2009, p. 4. Mentions Murray and League.

“Manitoba senator emerges as saviour of Gatineau Park: Mira Spivak fighting to give Crown jewel federal protection,” by Dave Rogers, The Ottawa Citizen, May 18, 2009, pp. A1

Gatineau Park bill draws flak,” by Laura Czekaj, Ottawa Sun, June 10, 2009. Quotes GPPC co-chair McDermott.

Un « pas dans la bonne direction », par Patrice Gaudreault, Le Droit, le 10 juin 2009.

La Commission St-Onge, le mardi 9 juin 2009, Tag Radio X, 96,5, Gatineau, entrevue, 12h14-12h20. Radio interview with Jean-Paul Murray as co-chair of GPPC.

“All in a Day,” CBC Radio Ottawa, 91.5 FM, June 9, 2009 “Gatineau Park.” Interview between Adrian Harewood and Gilles Paquet, NCC Mandate Review chair. Jean-Paul Murray quoted as co-chair of GPPC.

“Cannon’s Park Gatineau Park Bill Controversial,” by Julie Murray, The West Quebec Post, June 12-18, 2009, p. 1. Names Murray and McDermott as GPPC co-chairs.

“Meech Lake boat ban earns praise,” Ottawa Sun, Sunday, July 12, 2009 (also on Sherbrooke Record’s Web site). Talks about GPPC praising NCC policy.

« Moins de bateaux motorisés sur le lac Meech : La CCN entend mieux protéger les écosystèmes du parc de la Gatineau », par François Pierre Dufault, Le Droit, le 13 juillet 2009, p.5.

« Moins de bateaux sur le Lac Meech », Radio énergie, 104,1, Gatineau, le lundi 13 juillet 2009 (aussi diffusé sur les ondes de 94,9, Rockdétente).

“NCC motorboat restriction earns park protectors’ praise,” by Trevor Greenway, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, July 15-July 21, 2009, p. 10.

“Harper, Charest announce Highway 5 extension to Wakefield,” by Dave Rogers, The Ottawa Citizen, August 15, 2009. Quotes McDermott as co-chair of GPPC.

« Projet de loi C-37 portant sur l’avenir du parc de la Gatineau: les groupes écolos promettent de réagir », par Philippe Orfali, le Droit, le 25 août 2009. Half-page article about the GPPC and its paper on Bill C-37.

“New house in park has protectors crying foul,” by Mark Burgess, The Low Down to Hull and Back News, September 2-8, 2009, p. 3. About GPPC.

“Home goes up inside Gatineau Park,” by Lily Ryan, The West Quebec Post, September 4-10, 2009, p. 3. About GPPC.

“NCC blamed for failing to protect Gatineau Park,” by Dave Rogers, The Ottawa Citizen, September 4, 2009 p. B3. Featuring Murray breaking the news of another Master plan violation and construction inside the park.

|}

::And there are others, relating the story of the League, Percy Sparks. You might look at the study “The Creation and Early Development of Gatineau Park,” by Filion and Gagnon. Commissioned as a result of the League's first presentation to the Board, the study mentions Murray and the League on pages 5, 6, 25 and 26.--Stoneacres (talk) 17:55, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom and for the other reasons given. The article Politics of Gatineau Park should go the same way unless it can be brought within the scope of wikipedia which looks unlikely. --KenWalker | Talk 02:24, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

:Reply to comment: as mentioned above, I have asked the same admin to review Politics of Gatineau Park as well and make recommendations. In the meantime edits to that article or comments on its talk page are welcome. - Ahunt (talk) 02:57, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

::I have looked at Politics of Gatineau Park and my recommendation is that should be nominated for deletion as well, it has multiple copyright and conflict of interest problems. MilborneOne (talk) 09:25, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment if there are secondary sources that are french language publications and the park is located in Quebec, would this article find a happier home on French Wikipedia? Is there such an article already, but we don't link to it? I found [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parc_de_la_Gatineau the French article on Gatineau Park], but it does not appear to link to a French verison of the Gatineau Park Protection Committee, Politics of Gatineau Park or New Woodlands Preservation League. I wonder if the creation of an English language folk is insulating the three articles from the scrutiny of French-speaking editors that may have more expertise on the subject than we do. (In theory, if I wanted to write a POV fork on the New York Yankees, I would have more luck posting the POV content fork on a French or Dutch wikipedia than on the English wikipedia.)

: I don't understand how User:Stoneacres can list all of these references above, but not work them into the article in a meaningful way. Nor have I been able to determine whether these are independent, third party reliable sources. Do these news stories cover the NWPL or GPPC or merely provide an incidental reference? Racepacket (talk) 06:28, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

::Comment: I have found many of those refs listed above and the ones I have found contain only a mention of the organization name while discussing other topics, such as development in the park, highway construction, etc. As User:Stoneacres mentions at Talk:New_Woodlands_Preservation_League#Ways_to_move_forward, some of the articles don't even mention the GPPC or NWPL, but quote the two individuals who are members of the organizations. He says: "All articles quoting Messrs. Murray and McDermott on Gatineau Park are to be taken as articles on NWPL/GPPC, since they were acting in their capacity as members of those organizations." - Ahunt (talk) 12:16, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

:::Ahunt is being dishonest. The great majority of those articles cover issues that were brought to the media's attention by the League/GPPC and wouldn't exist without those groups. We have shone the ligth on the darkness of the NCC's management of Gatineau Park. They clearly chronicle the League/GPPC's activities, and testify beyond the shadow of a doubt to their notability precisely in accordance with Wikipedia's rules.

:::Funny how Ahunt dismisses those articles without having read every one of them. Go ahead and be dishonest, and lead your little wiki lynchmob. Go ahead and destroy knowledge.--Stoneacres (talk) 20:47, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

::::User:Stoneacres: Rather than slinging insults around, please read WP:CIVIL. - Ahunt (talk) 21:00, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

::Ahunt's manic-depressive, martial law behaviour is what's insulting. Perhaps he should read Wikipedia's rules on trying to "out" somebody. It's clear Ahunt created both the GPPC/NWPL sites to out its members. Reading the Gatineau Park/Politics of Gatineau Park articles confirms he baited a member of that organization--ordering him, among other things, to produce the name of a GPPC member quoted in the press, although that name was widely available.

::And now that he thinks he's outed them, he speciously contends that they are not notable, because they are an informal organization. In total disregard for the overwhelming evidence that they have pretty much set the agenda on the park file over the last 6 years, he suggests the sites be deleted.

::You're not in the army anymore private. Time you started acting like a civilian. Talking to a shrink might help you with your obsessive need to give orders and be in control.--Stoneacres (talk) 00:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

:::User:Stoneacres: please read WP:CIVIL, which says: "Incivility consists of personal attacks, rudeness, and aggressive behaviours that disrupt the project and lead to unproductive stress and conflict. Editors are human, capable of mistakes, so a few, minor incidents of incivility are not in themselves a major concern. A behavioral pattern of incivility is disruptive and unacceptable, and may result in blocks if it rises to the level of harassment or egregious personal attacks. A single act of incivility can also cross the line if it is severe enough: for instance, extreme verbal abuse or profanity directed at another contributor, or a threat against another person can all result in blocks without consideration of a pattern." You are required to be civil hereand your insults and personal attacks are not acceptable. - Ahunt (talk) 02:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

::::Comment: User:Stoneacres, thank you for giving me credit for starting this article and Gatineau Park Protection Committee, but if you check the records [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gatineau_Park_Protection_Committee&limit=500&action=history here] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Woodlands_Preservation_League&action=history here], you will see that actually you started both those articles. - Ahunt (talk) 02:41, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.