Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gypsy Sun Experience

Prodded as non notable, deprodded as so obviously meets notability standards there should be no argument but there is no entry at Allmusic, and only 100 or so Ghits, so standard of WP:MUSIC may apply. Eusebeus 15:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC) After further review, and the accusations made of bad faith below, I attach the following evidence. i don't think this band ever really existed. From the Google results, if we remove two bios that have been replicated across the web, the overall hits plunges dramatically:

Exclude this result: "including a Hendrix-tribute outfit called The Gypsy Sun Experience," http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&as_qdr=all&q=%22cox+continues+to+play+to+This+day%2C+including+a+Hendrix-tribute+outfit+called+The+Gypsy+Sun+Experience%22&btnG=Search

And this phrase: "Mitch is now involved with the Gypsy Sun Experience" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&as_qdr=all&q=+%22Mitch+is+now+involved+with+the+Gypsy+Sun+Experience%22&btnG=Search

And the hits fall by 60%. Of those that remain (including the samples from the above), we have:

1) [http://www.wtv-zone.com/ruexperienced/visitors/billycox.html] Billy Cox has recently reunited with Experience drummer Mitch Mitchell, and guitarist Gary Serkin and done a series of shows under the name Gypsy Sun Experience. No evidence of their having actually played anywhere or existing.

this page is replicated through the results. (e.g. http://www.jcrmusicnews.com/affprod.php?lang=uk&ind=874)

2) [http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/bio/index.jsp?pid=52495] In the wake of Hendrix's death, Cox played with others, including the Charlie Daniels Band, as well as session work and live dates. Cox continues to play to this day, including a Hendrix-tribute outfit called the Gypsy Sun Experience, which also includes former bandmate Mitchell on drums and Gary Serkin on guitar (Cox was also the recipient of his own model bass, when the Cort guitar company issued a Billy Cox "Freedom" model bass in the late '90s). But no evidence that they really exist.

3) [http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=3401035] A myspace page of someone (Gary Serkin?) who is 72. From the site: About me: I'm a guitarist who is into positive forces for humanity and the universe For more info, please feel free to email me for the link to my website ~GS In the margin, claims to be part of the same or eponymous band ~GS's Companies Gypsy Sun Productions Nashville, TN US Band: Gypsy Sun Experience Guitar

5) This empty page http://contographer.com/The%20Gypsy%20Sun%20Experience.htm

6) Some 404s (including all the VH1 pages that at first glance appear to provide substance to existence) [http://www.roadie.net/resume62.htm], [http://shop.vh1.com/namepage.aspx?pid=P67012&type=P&loc=33703]

7) Finally, we have a mention in a student paper, [http://www.uwf.edu/StudentAffairs/division/publications/studentnews/index.cfm?emailID=11089]

but no evidence that they actually played a gig - no reviews, or fan comments, or anything.

('On Saturday night there will be a “Woodstock Party” at Seville Quarter with a concert by “Experience” Billy Cox and his Gypsy Sun Experience.'')

8) And again, another phantom gig is referenced, but no furter evidence of having existed [http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:HhUOG-sK0wwJ:classicrock.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa081699.htm+%22Gypsy+Sun+Experience%22+-wikipedia+-answers+-%22Mitch+is+now+involved+with+the%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11]

9) This mentions a gig (the same one referenced above) but the audio and review is missing and the guy actually never saw them. [http://www.chopperware.com/azar/mitch/bio/nineties.htm]

There are another handful of results, but I refuse to believe that this could be the total web presence of a band, had it really existed, that features such members. It looks almost like a hoax. Eusebeus 22:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

In other words, even though Billboard, allmusic, VH1, several newspapers, and all the band members say the band exists, you deny it exists. Could one ask for a clearer demonstration of bad faith and determination to stick to a completely wrongheaded position? Monicasdude 22:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

:Can you post the relevant links? Your VH1 link is here [http://shop.vh1.com/namepage.aspx?pid=P67012&type=P&loc=33703] and it is 404 (Page not found). And I can't find anything on allmusic.com. Eusebeus 22:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

::What, you don't know to click the "cached" link when Google indexes a later-deleted page? And, as I said quite plainly before, check the member pages at allmusic. You could, of course, also go to the relevant Usenet groups and finds concert reviews by concertgoers, but perhaps you'll claim those are hoaxes, too, since Billboard doesn't meets your definition of a reliable source on music, either. [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.music.jimi.hendrix/browse_thread/thread/2a1b8034424448d/8684b2462aa4370f?lnk=st&q=%22gypsy+sun+experience%22&rnum=1&hl=en#8684b2462aa4370f] Monicasdude 22:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

:Speedy Keep, another bad faith nomination; just checking the members of the band would make clear that the main members of the band are clearly notable, and that the band is a reunion/reincarnation of the surviving members of the Jimi Hendrix Experience and obviously meets WP:MUSIC standards. Monicasdude 15:48, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per WP:MUSIC.--Isotope23 16:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I can't verify this through reliable sources. Through google I got to a Mitch Mitchell site that said he played a few shows in Nashville as the "Gypsy Sun Experience", but I couldn't find a concert review or any other comment in Tennessee newspapers via Lexis/Nexis (or anywhere else in the country), and the statement "There is talk of the Gypsy Sun Experience joining forces with..." is pure crystal ball. Certainly former members of the Jimi Hendrix Experience are notable but if they jam together in a few clubs and get no news coverage anywhere, does it still count as notable? Thatcher131 18:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC) See below. Thatcher131 01:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Good point... I completely missed the fact that there was no allmusic entry. It does seem curious that former members of JHE getting together would generate almost no press. Removed my keep vote for now. I'm going to scrounge around a bit more before I decide.--Isotope23 13:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
• I see alot of chatter above, but is there any evidence at all that they've recorded or gigged? --Isotope23 00:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

::::They gigged in 1999. No dates later than that have turned up, and no recordings that anyone can find. Thatcher131 03:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• Changed to Delete per WP:MUSIC, this is simply not WP:V. It would be notable if it were in any way sourced.--Isotope23 20:35, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
• removing my opinion.--Isotope23 13:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, seems to meet WP:MUSIC. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEMES?) 21:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Notability established by Monicasdude, verifiability established by Eusebus. The Allmusic biography (which is copied at VH1 and Billboard) and usenet concert info would not be enough to establish notability of an unknown artist but is enough to verify that these notable artists have performed together in this group. Merge would be a poor choice since the info would have to be copied into Mitch Mitchell, Billy Cox, Jimi Hendrix Experience and Gypsy Sun and Rainbows, so keep as a separate article. Thatcher131 01:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Thatcher's fine analysis. I should say that I do not ascribe bad faith to the nomination and do not think such ascription to be fair; if anything, one's willingness to engage in a debate as to the propriety of our using certain sources, even where one appears exorbitantly recalcitrant, would seem to suggest that he/she has a deeply- and sincerely-held belief apropos of the notability (or verifiability) of a subject. Though one could, I'm sure, couch a bad faith nom in verifiability terms, I think the willingess of Eusebeus to engage in a genuine debate (making conclusions that, though perhaps not the same as mine, are surely not wholly unreasonable) disposes the question (especially in view of our presumptions in favor of good faith. Joe 17:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Thatcher. Indeed, this is an example of a band notable via including musicians notable for their other work. Mangojuice^talk 17:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.