Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Irish-Scots

Reason why the page should be deleted: this page is too short and too sectarian to do justice to the larger issue it awkwardly attempts to essay understanding: that of dual loyalty. Is it possible to be loyal to Ireland and Scotland at the same time (we all know the answer to that, anyway). The page should be deleted because it is provocative in a sectarian fashion, and was heavily sanitized when first produced for a vote on deletion. Pls. review with my additions (provided CPMcE has not deleted them).

Thank You.

216.194.2.210 15:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

:Bad faith nomination, and incorrect procedure followed, by yet another Sock-puppet of Rms125a@hotmail.com. See Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Rms125a@hotmail.com for the history of this user's rabid POV assertions and disgusting personal attacks.

:I do agree that, in the form that Rms/216.194 has left it, it is an example of vile sectarianism, with no place in an encyclopedia. Camillus (talk) 15:41, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Not a clearly defined community.PatGallacher 17:42, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I only meant to call for deletion of the article, but I may have triggered of a call for deletion of the category as well, so be it. Some of these issues were discussed in the Charles Kennedy talk page. The crucial point is that the term "Irish-Scots" is NOT significantly used in Scotland, if it was then it would be encyclopedic. Whether we like it or not (and there are some good reasons for not liking it) the main social division in Scotland is between Protestants and Roman Catholics. Who all does this term apply to? Lots of Scottish people (including many Protestants) have an Irish ancestor somewhere in their family tree. How predominant does your Irish ancestry have to be to come into this category? Most Scottish people would have no idea how to answer this. PatGallacher 17:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

• Delete Neutral insofar as the Ulster Scots addresses this same population, protestant Irish that migrated from Scotland and later settled in the US (Ronald Reagan being among the notable descendents). Jtmichcock 00:48, 3 December 2005 (UTC) I'm changing my vote to neutral. I am persuaded that my reference was incorrect, but I am not certain that the group has the notability to merit its own article. So count me on the fence. Jtmichcock 19:34, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
• Comment Although I'm only a weak "keep" on this article, I have to point out that your "delete" vote appears to be based on a misunderstanding: this article clearly does not refer to the same community as Ulster Scots. Ulster Scots or Scots-Irish are people of Scottish descent in Ireland, while Irish-Scots are people of Irish descent in Scotland. So the question is not whether the community referred to is already covered by Ulster Scots, but whether it merits an article of its own. --Ryano 12:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep Disagree with both comments above.
• I don't know if you live in Scotland, PatGallacher, but I do, and I know plenty of people who call themselves Irish-Scots, famously of course Billy Connolly and James Connolly. If you know anything about Scottish history then you'll know that in many parts of Scotland there where NO Roman Catholics until the first wave of immigration in the 19th century, when many Irish people came to Scotland to take the jobs of striking workers - which caused a great deal of resentment at the time.
• Without wanting to sound flippant, you only need to go to Celtic Park to see tons of Irish-Scots - why else do they wave all those tricolours? Indeed, Celtic F.C. (and Hibernian F.C) where specifically created to provide recreational facilities for the Irish-Scots.
• Who do you suppose the Ancient Order of Hibernians consists of in Scotland?

• Ulster Scots does NOT address the same population at all. Ulster Scots are people who emigrated from Scotland to Ireland (mostly in the "plantations" of the 16th-17th century, while Irish-Scots are people who emigrated from Ireland to Scotland, mostly in the 19th and 20th centuries. Completely different and distinct.
• You cite the Ulster Scots, Jt, but if you care to look at that page, you'll see the following:
• "Ulster-Scots" is a term used to refer to the Presbyterians descended from people of Scotland who live in Ulster, Ireland. "Scotch-Irish" is the usual term in the United States; "Scots-Irish" is also used to refer to the same people, and is not to be confused with Irish-Scots, i.e. Irish immigrants to Scotland.

• So obviously the author of that page thinks there is such a thing as Irish-Scots.

• Incidentally, I created the stub, and I recognise that it is rather poor, and needs improved, but not deleted.
• I did not create the category, so there must be someone else who agrees with me.

20pxCamillus20px^(talk) 01:52, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep, perhaps not under this title, but the topic of Irish emigrant communities in Scotland, their descendants, and the cultural ramifications thereof is clearly (a) real and (b) worthy of coverage. Palmiro | Talk 20:57, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep, although I'd like to see a few more references to this being the primary descriptor for Scots people of Irish descent. I would probably favour deleting the category, however, as I'm not a fan of categorising biographical articles purely by ethnicity. --Ryano 11:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep This is a key demographic group in Scotland, and a quality article on the topic will increase understanding of modern Scotland.--Mais oui! 06:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

• Rename to something less annoyingly ambiguous. - SoM 17:24, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.