Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khutbatul Wada'

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1) 2 identical articles on this exists. The identical article is the The Farewell Sermon

2) Both articles give a quote attributed to Muhammad, i failed to verify both articles

3) There is a reference in both articles, the main article saying that the farewell sermon is just many different Hadith(words of Muhammad) placed together (i checked some of those hadith, even they are not similiar to the version given in the articles). This is a clear case of quote manipulation.

4) The article discuss Muhammad's final sermon, of which there is many, but the one given in the sources, i am 99% sure it is fake/hoax. As i searched on the internet, many Islamic websites do mention this version, but not a single one gives the EXACT Primary source, which mentions the quote word for word. "If a lie is repeated often,it might be accepted as truth, but its still a lie", and i have shown proof this is a lie, no primary sources.

5)I also found that on the internet many people, both muslims and critics of islam have been discussing the authenticity of this version of the farewell sermon.see links below:

[http://www.yanabi.com/forum/PrintTopic390557.aspx In Yanabi.com discussing its authencity]

[http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?59084-The-Final-Sermon-of-the-Prophet-Muhammad-is-fake-hoax.-is-this-true Discussion on sunni forum about authenticity]

[http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=134:fraudulent-translation-of-muhammad-last-sermon-egalitarian&catid=89:other-authors&Itemid=58 Anti islamic website ]

This anti islamic website mentions that this version was compiled by somone called S.H.Faizi, most likely in his book

[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nLplPQAACAAJ&dq=Syed+F.+H.+Faizi&hl=en&ei=LomtTaaVHqrZ4waO1OTzCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAA Sermons of the Prophet (P. B. U. H.):]. If this is true, then the quote should be removed, as it is not from a primary source.There is no debate that a 21st century book can not and must not be considered a primary source about Muhammad's life. Only old thigns like the quran and hadith dated back 1400 years ago should be used as primary sources. Most likely this version was made up or is a wild translation.

--Misconceptions2 (talk) 13:00, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

:::This is nonsense. The event of Muhammad's sermon (khutba) on his last pilgrimage, known as hajjat al-wada', is reported in almost every single seerah (prophetic biography) book. I agree that the article lacks reliable sources, but the rants of an anti-Muslim idiot on some website is not an acceptable reason to declare this story a hoax. Al-Andalusi (talk) 16:41, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I did not say there is no such thing as a last sermon, just that this version is fake, if you can show me 1 single primary source which mentions the exact version, i will retract my statements.

on the pages it says that various hadith mention the last sermon, but not the version on the 2 articles !--Misconceptions2 (talk) 18:01, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I have found some information about the origin of these quotes. It seems the publisher of the quote has been making up false sermons attributed to Muhammad. Although he does not consider it fake, he has just mixed many different quotes of muhammad (hadith) together with his translation. (this should confirm that the version is not authentic)

Sermons of the prophet: Arabic text with English Translation by S.F.H Faizi. Lahore, Islamic Book foundation, 1987. Thus neither of them is a collection exclusively of the sayings and sermons of the holy Prophet, as both are a mixture of the English translation of the Qur'anic verses and the Prophetic Traditions.

[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=g03rAAAAMAAJ&q=as+both+are+a+mixture+of+the+English+translation+of+the+Qur'anic+verses+and+the+Prophetic+Traditions.+Then+there+is+%22The&dq=as+both+are+a+mixture+of+the+English+translation+of+the+Qur'anic+verses+and+the+Prophetic+Traditions.+Then+there+is+%22The&hl=en&ei=adOtTbvjIYWY8QO5rpnzAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA Source]

i think an expert should try verify this--Misconceptions2 (talk) 18:30, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

:You're probably right that the version included in the article is fake, I think that should be removed immediately. However, the article needs to remain as the event of Muhammad giving a sermon on his last hajj is notable enough to have its own article. The event can be reconstructed from numerous hadith sources and there are sufficient modern sources that attempted that. Al-Andalusi (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes i agree with your view, i also think that only the actual primary sources i.e quran, hadith which mention this event, should be quoted. There are so many different version of this sermon, i found 4 different ones, sunni version 1,2 and shia version 1,2. i also found another version on an anti islamic website. but dont know if it is authentic, as i cant verify it using google book.

1. [http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/lastserm.HTM Sunni version 1, mot popular, no primary sources]: only says that the farewell sermon is mentioned in soem hadith

2. [http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx?&tabid=32&artid=109 Sunni Version 2, less known, contains anyalysis, again no primary sources]

3. [http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Last_Sermon_of_Muhammad_by_Shia_Accounts Shia version 1, fully sourced and verified]

4. [http://islammonitor.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=1416 Anti islamic website quoting Tabari], [http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?139122-The-Last-Sermon-Of-the-Prophet(Sal-Allaahu-alayhe-wa-sallam) Ummah.com Muslim website quoting tabari, with alternate translation]

5. [http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/10680 Islamqa.com mentions some hadith which refer o the farewell sermon] --Misconceptions2 (talk) 19:36, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

:*This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 11:27, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:20, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

• Merge with The Farewell Sermon. Many misconceptions here, indeed. External links don't have to be Reliable Source, for example (Misconceptions2 has removed some major Islamic site from External Links as "not reliable.") I'd think that our article, where available texts vary, would point to multiple sources, and if quoting from texts, would attribute them to the specific translation as published and available. --Abd (talk) 01:08, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
• Merge per Abd; We need only one article on this subject. That said, should the English title be moved to this title with a redirect, or should this title be redirected to the English title? Probably something to consider - either way, the merge target should be the English title, as it is far superior in terms or sourcing and content. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 14:20, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
• Merge and delete unsourced content (or redirect), also abd, you said that if the quote/sermon is put on wikipedia, we should give translation and original source, Well there is no traslation or original source mentioned in any of hte exteneral links or in the links that were there previouslly (used as references). I was unable to verify them, they all say that the sermon is mentioend in various hadith, none of these hadith are even close to the version that was on wikipedia before it was removed by al andalusi.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
• Merge per abd. --Reference Desker (talk) 04:53, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.