Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sui-Turkic war

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:{{la|1=Sui-Turkic war}} – (View AfDView log | edits since nomination)

:({{Find sources AFD|title=Sui-Turkic war}})

This seems to me, based on the lack of available sources and a look at a translation of the primary sources offered, to be a set of skirmishes, minor invasions, and on and off bickering rather than an actual "war" per se. I do not believe this subject is notable based on my WP:BEFORE search. Some of the battles individually might be, but again, I don't thing the "Sui-Turkic war" is a discrete topic in-and-of-itself. Cremastra (u — c) 16:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Military, Asia, China, and Central Asia. Cremastra (u — c) 16:22, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
• Leaning merge. I think it would have been appropriate for the nom to have dropped a link to this revision, one diff prior to their own gutting of uncited content comprising the majority of the prose. For clarity, this is the version I would support merging into related articles: the article at the diff of nomination adds essentially nothing to either {{slink|Sui dynasty|Foundation and Emperor Wen}} or {{slink|First Turkic Khaganate|Civil war}}.{{pb}}I haven't yet done a BEFORE, so no comment on notability yet. Whether or not this topic can be construed as a "war" may come down to a translation issue, but this is the English Wikipedia so our word for "war" obviously takes precedence.{{pb}}The main thing I'm actually commenting to note is that none of the (WP:GENREF) sources given are actually Primary sources. There are two modern sources named only in translation – which will add difficulty in locating them – but obviously secondary sources even given the translation of their titles. There are a further two secondary sources which happen to be pretty old. Both Book of Sui and Zizhi Tongjian were compiled by professional historians from extant primary and secondary sources at their disposal. Zizhi Tongjian in particular is extraordinarily reputable and may even be considered a tertiary source, but that's a point I don't want to argue.{{pb}}Additionally, if these are the two sources being consulted {{tqq|in translation}}, I can attest that machine translation of Classical Chinese (and even modern Chinese written in a more old-school style) is still real bad, with its major problems including word boundaries, grammatical functions, abbreviated referents, and proper nouns.{{pb}}Anyway, still no strong opinion here as I haven't put in the work to inform myself, so I don't know yet whether or not this nomination is appropriate (although an absence of sister language articles is not a positive omen), but the process of nomination in this particular case looks flawed to me personally. Folly Mox (talk) 17:52, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
• Keep: Per the significant coverage in reliable sources on the topic, including various pages in The Military History in Sui, Tang and Five Dynasties; or see https://doaj.org/article/d4cdaacd051b42099ce82e79374c94d4; Warfare in Inner Asian History (500-1800). (2018), p. 61 and Graff, D. (2003), Medieval Chinese Warfare 300-900 Taylor & Francis (pp. 13, 142, 144, 146, 155, 157, 176). Etc. -Mushy Yank. 22:47, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
• :Renaming the page Military confrontations between the Sui Dynasty and the Turks might suffice to address the nominator's concern because the topic seems notable enough for an entry. -Mushy Yank. 22:52, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• Keep, since by previous comments there does appear to be WP:GNG source coverage. I don't like the idea of picking one of the proposed merge targets over the other, since presumably the event was relevant both to the Sui Dynasty and the First Turkic Khaganate. Not opposed to a rename, though I think I'd prefer a more concise title than what's previously been suggested. --Richard Yin (talk) 06:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.