Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 October 13#Category:Irish terrorists

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The result of the debate was Rename. «»Who?¿?^meta 14:31, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Rename to match the naming scheme in use. I really wish this could be done with a speedy rename, though ... — Pladask 22:54, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• Rename. -- Rick Block (talk) 01:18, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Rename. NatusRoma 05:02, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Approve: Consistency. (SEWilco 14:44, 14 October 2005 (UTC))
• Rename. No argument. siafu 15:52, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete. «»Who?¿?^meta 14:28, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Delete. Mistakenly listed in AfD along with a companion article, these are empty categories for the author's personal nonencyclopedic project - the author wrote:

:i am creating a Halo campaing book for gurps with an friend of mine, but as it is no finished i shall updat this article every once in a while.

Enough said.  BD2412 ^talk 22:20, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• Frag 'em. I can't forsee any need for these. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 22:33, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete: Not part of Wikipedia. (SEWilco 14:44, 14 October 2005 (UTC))
• Delete. No argument. siafu 15:54, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Rename. «»Who?¿?^meta 14:27, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Bring together experimental particle physics equipment/experiments with techniques/ideas. Categories like :Category:Particle accelerators would now be put on here. Discussed at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Physics#New particle physics category?--generally agreed there to be reasonable. -- SCZenz 19:01, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• Approve: Sounds reasonable. (SEWilco 19:47, 13 October 2005 (UTC))
• Rename. No argument. siafu 15:55, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Rename to :Category:Bell Canada Enterprises. «»Who?¿?^meta 14:26, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

BCE Inc. (legally "BCE Inc.", also known as "Bell Canada Enterprises" [http://www.bce.ca/en/company/corporateffactsheet/index.php]) is a Canadian company with the following subsidiaries: Bell Canada, Bell Globemedia, and BCE Ventures [http://www.bce.ca/en/company/ownership/index.php]. The :Category:Bell Canada currently contains companies from each of these subsidiaries. For example, Bell Mobility is a part of Bell Canada, :Category:Bell Globemedia is a sub-category of this category, and this category also contains Telesat Canada, a division of BCE Ventures. This category also contains members of the board of directors of BCE Inc., not Bell Canada. A category does not appear to be needed for the subject of just the subsidiary Bell Canada, so the renaming of this category is requested. Kurieeto 15:53, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• Comment "Bell Canada Enterprises" is probably better? 132.205.45.110 16:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

:Either option would be fine with me for the purposes of this cfr, I by default went with the legal name of the company. Kurieeto 17:42, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• Rename :Category:BCE Inc. We should use the official names of companies. CalJW 19:09, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Comment: A three letter abbreviation is not distinctive and does not identify the entity well. I'm sure it is legally also known as "Bell Canada Enterprises" so prefer {{cl|Bell Canada Enterprises}}. (SEWilco 19:47, 13 October 2005 (UTC))
• :Category:Bell Canada Enterprises, per SEWilco.  BD2412 ^talk 22:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Rename. No proof given that it is "legally also known as Bell Canada Enterprises", just an assumption. However, is it feasible to make it :Category:BCE Inc. (Bell Canadian Enterprises) as a clarifying compromise? Also, am curious about the "Inc.": I thought "Ltd." was used in Canada - yes? no? 12.73.198.178 00:50, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

:Comment - "Inc." is the term used on the company's website linked to above. Your suggested compromise could also be selected as an option in this vote. Kurieeto 02:30, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

:Comment — To answer your curiosity, federally incorporated Canadian companies may use a number of legal element designations, including "Inc.", "Incorporated", "Ltd.", and "Limited". See [http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet/incd-dgc.nsf/en/cs01293e.html]. Luigizanasi 16:32, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. It may be the legal name, but Wikipedia's policy is to use the commonly used name. --20px Spinboy 01:46, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

:Comment - But "Bell Canada" also properly refers to a subsidiary of BCE, while this category is being used as if it has the scope of BCE and all subsidiaries. It is therefore ambiguous to the reader if a :Category:Bell Canada refers to BCE Inc. as the company's common name, or just to one of BCE's subsidiaries. Kurieeto 02:30, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

• Rename to :Category:Bell Canada Enterprises. The company website [http://www.bce.ca/en/] seems to use both Bell Canada Enterprises and BCE Inc. indifferently. Bell Canada Enterprises is more obvious as to what the category is about for people who are not up on TLAs. Luigizanasi 03:15, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Move to {{cl|Bell Canada Enterprises}}. Corporate fact sheet says "Company: BCE Inc. (Bell Canada Enterprises)". (SEWilco 05:48, 14 October 2005 (UTC))
• If that's what the "corporate fact sheet" says, then definitely and obviously the appropriate Wikipedia title is :Category:BCE Inc. (Bell Canada Enterprises), as was already suggested, not just :Category:Bell Canada Enterprises, which is only a parenthetical for the company!. 12.73.194.175 17:37, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Rename to :Category:Bell Canada Enterprises. Avoid abbreviations. siafu 15:57, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Rename to :Category:Bell Canada Enterprises per abbrv and main article title. ∞Who?¿? 21:52, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Rename to :Category:BCE Inc., the company is pretty universally known by its acronym. No one would propose expanding :Category:IBM. - SimonP 00:05, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Comment. Just out of curiosity, I asked my wife whether she knew what BCE or BCE Inc. was. She did not. But she did know Bell Canada Enterprises & IBM. OK, I know, it's original research & not allowed. :-) Luigizanasi 16:12, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Rename to :Category:Bell Canada Enterprises. Avoid abbreviations. -Splash^talk 02:03, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Rename to :Category:Bell Canada Enterprises. The article BCE Inc. is strictly a redirect to Bell Canada. Wikipedia does not have a rule that the official name of a company always trumps clarity; Wikipedia does not have a rule that we can't use the "expanded" form of an acronym as our primary title or category name. Wikipedia does, however, contraindicate the use of Ltd. or Inc. in article and category titles. And IBM is not really a valid comparison; BCE doesn't even approach the shadows of the kind of worldwide household-name status that IBM has. A more appropriate comparison would be CBC -- even though that acronym is still orders of magnitude more widely known than BCE, the CBC's article is at Canadian Broadcasting Corporation rather than CBC. Bearcat 17:37, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
  
• Rename, but to :Category:BCE or :Category:BCE (Bell Canada Enterprises); it is popularly known as BCE (e.g., [http://www.bceplace.com/PropertyWebsites/BCEPlace/bcepropsite.nsf/MainFrames/MainFrame BCE Place] in Toronto, not 'Bell Canada Enterprises, (Inc.) Place', etc.), and this is descriptive enough (w/o 'Inc.'); my latter suggestion is a potential disambig. (Oh: BCE (and CBC) are initialisms, not acronyms like CSIS ('see-sis'); Inc. is an abbreviation.) :) E Pluribus Anthony 09:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete. See closure note. «»Who?¿?^meta 14:08, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Overly specific. Has no articles in it. Just has 2 subcategories-:Category:Irish National Liberation Army and :Category:Irish Republican Army--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91User talk:Shreshth91 13:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• Keep - It's consistent with the other categories :Category:German terrorists, :Category:Saudi Arabian terrorists, :Category:French terrorists, etc in :Category:Terrorists by nationality. The edit history says it was created today at 13:00 and tagged for deletion at 13:05, which is a bit early to nominate it for being empty. JW 15:05, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

:Comment. It's now been more than 4 days and it's still empty.--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91User talk:Shreshth91 05:28, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

• Keep per JW. -- SCZenz 19:03, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose: Consistent and populated. (SEWilco 19:47, 13 October 2005 (UTC))
• Delete. Inherently POV and quite likely only created as a provocation (sorry, but given the history of editing in related articles this seems more than likely). Also, it appears redundant as there is already a :Category:Proscribed paramilitary organizations in Northern Ireland which seems to cover the same ground in a neutral, non-provocative way. Palmiro | Talk 22:29, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• It will be impossible to put articles/subcategories in this category, as many people consider that NPOV requires that we avoid the use of POV terms such as "terrorist' cf Wikipedia:Words to avoid in articles, and as a result such usages have been scrupulously avoided on all the articles in question. This applies just as much to placing articles in categories.
• There are good reasons why the current category is named as it is: apart from the POV problems with "terrorism", many people would consider that any categorisation of, say, the IRA as terrorists would be unfair unless opposing organisations such as, for example, the SAS, which have also killed unarmed civilians, are categorised as such. Many other people would vehemently object to this. The current category allows us to get around this problem.
• I cannot imagine that an attempt to place the likes of Michael Collins (widely seen as the father of the independent Irish State) or Frank Ryan, who died largely as a result of wounds he received in the anti-fascist war in Spain, in a category denominated "terrorists" could be pulled off without the mother of all edit wars.
• The category was created by an anonymous user, whose only previous contribution was the POV edit placing the category:IRA in category:Terrorism. The requirement to assume good faith is considerably attenuated in these circumstances.
• In fairness I should point out that the reason the category is currently empty is that I reverted changes to cat:INLA and cat:IRA adding them to it as unacceptable POV changes. I'm pretty sure, though, that if I hadn't someone else would have. Palmiro | Talk 19:04, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• comment please do not depopulate categories listed on CFD until the end of the discussion. This gives a false impression that the category is empty. Thank you. ∞Who?¿? 21:56, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• query: surely the requirement to maintain NPOV (and accuracy, in the case of the IRA category) is not suspended simply because a category is on CFD? As it's explained here, it hardly "gives a false impression that the category is empty". Palmiro | Talk 13:56, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

:::*Under normal circumstances I would agree and would have not reverted. However, because the category is childless, removing any content, even POV content gives a false impression. Not all users read all of the discussion, they look and vote. Seeings a CFD only lasts 7 days, these articles/categories remaining till the end will not harm anything. ∞Who?¿? 14:11, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

• Keep - consistency in categorisation is a huge help. Besides, is there any good reason to constrain our categorisation to Northern Ireland, or to organisations, rather than individuals, who may be unaffiliated? RMoloney 00:09, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Can you suggest an example of an article that could be covered by (preferably an NPOV renaming of) this category, but not by the existing category?
• Note that in other controversial areas other terminology has been used, e.g. :Category:Palestinian militants. Palmiro | Talk 18:27, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete - totally unpopulated, and a general trend becoming rampant in wikipedia of creating inherently generic and pov categories simply for the sake of it. Categories should be reserved for well defined objects, not as generic tags. Djegan 18:06, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete POV language. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 23:13, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. As has been pointed out before, one person's terrorist is another's freedom-fighter and, thus, the language of the title is inherently POV. And it won't do to make :Category:Irish freedom fighters because that would have exactly the same POV issues: categories can't balance one another in the way different sections of one article can. Though I do think there is no reason why we can't have :Category:Proscribed groups in Foo or somesuch. -Splash^talk 02:08, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• keep per JW & RMoloney Youngamerican 05:35, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Comment I think the whole categorisation scheme needs to be reconsidered, after all a group is not a terrorist. Something along the lines of proscribed groups in foo for organisations, and persons found guilty of terrorism in foo for individuals, both which can be stated factually and neutrally --TimPope 10:59, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support this suggestion. Palmiro | Talk 13:59, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support this idea too. It is an excellent idea, and far more neutral. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 15:55, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support. Lapsed Pacifist 16:00, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support any well defined category, which is not arbitrary, including this proposal. Djegan 16:06, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support. That would be a much better way of doing things. — Trilobite 17:35, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support. I like this idea, but maybe a name like "Armed factions of Foo"? siafu 19:34, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Question How would such an idea handle the IRA (1916-1922) and the ANC? Started as "proscribed", went on to be war heroes! --Red King 22:31, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Both of those examples are in the category :Category: National liberation movements. My reasoning for the above suggestions was thinking about Nelson Mandela, who under the present categorisation schema would be placed in "South African terrorists", not very neutral, whereas I propose he could be placed in "persons found guilty of terrorism in South Africa". --TimPope 09:30, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support. More NPOV, and I take on board Djegan's comment below. (This is a change of vote - I apologise if I've made an error of etiquette, I don't spend much time at AfD or CfD). RMoloney 15:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Lapsed Pacifist 11:20, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. The word terrorist is somewhat overused in Wikipedia and this is a case in point. Many people do not regard the Provisional IRA and their like as terrorists, and though we may disagree with them, Wikipedia is not supposed to be written from a majority point of view, but a neutral one. — Trilobite 17:35, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Deliberately tendentious and unhelpful. For example, the Soviet Union, the Taliban were terrorists but to the USA they were freedom fighters. it is impossible to use such words without taking a particular PoV. It certainly doesn't do anything for conflict resolution. See also Truth and Reconciliation Commission. --Red King 22:31, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. -The Tom 01:14, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
• Comment - as long as we have :Category:Terrorists and :Category:Terrorists by nationality it is very important that we apply them equally, and not exempt some groups for political reasons. JW 09:31, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
• Comment whilst it is fair to say uniformity is preferred, Wikipedia:Categorization#Categories_do_not_form_a_tree means that this is not an absolute must - their will be variation and we should not slavishly follow one convention, such as the parent categories :Category:Terrorists or :Category:Terrorists by nationality. Moreover we do not create one category for each nationality merely because it (the country) exist, their will be variation and exceptions. Djegan 10:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
• Comment: in any case, we've been here before, with a previous decision to rename these categories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2005_May_20, and that's why we have the current version 62.84.76.18 15:58, 17 October 2005 (UTC) (Palmiro, logged out due to apparent bug).
• Delete There was a similar debate a few months ago about "terrorist" categories. I don't even know why we're debating this.Yuber^(talk) 20:10, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete I do not even understand why someone could support keeping this category. "Terrorists" is about as POV as it gets.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pádraic MacUidhir (talk • contribs) 16:57, 19 October 2005
• Closing note there was a proposal to overhaul the terroists categories, if you wish to do so, please start a new discussion thread on Wikipedia talk:Categories for deletion. «»Who?¿?^meta 14:08, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete. «»Who?¿?^meta 13:56, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

No idea why this category was ever set up - there are better categories, such as :Category:Investment managers for this. DocendoDiscimus 12:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. No argument. siafu 16:01, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• merge. ∞Who?¿? 21:58, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Rename. «»Who?¿?^meta 13:54, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

International bank is a generic term for any bank that operates outside its home country. What is meant here are Supranational banks - which is also how the members of this category characterize themselves. DocendoDiscimus 12:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• Rename as proposed. CalJW 19:10, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Approve: Uses the right term. (SEWilco 19:47, 13 October 2005 (UTC))
• Rename. No argument. siafu 16:05, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Rename per nom. -Splash^talk 02:08, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Keep. «»Who?¿?^meta 13:52, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

In order to match with other subcats under :Category:Sports officiating, and also allows for those prominent in Europe and elsewhere outside the NHL. MisfitToys 01:08, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• KEEP and add the supercategory "Ice hockey officials" 132.205.45.110 16:37, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and make into a subcategory of :Category:Ice hockey officials, per above - Hockey is not the same all over the world, and the rules of the NHL have always been different and have recently been changed. NHL officials must therefore have knowledge and training that differs from the other hockey leagues, making them seperately notable.  BD2412 ^talk 17:34, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose: Not all hockey is NHL. (SEWilco 19:47, 13 October 2005 (UTC))
• Rename. The two categories (existing and proposed) are currently coterminous. Can be split in the future if the need arises. siafu 16:07, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep per above. Although they are within the same scope, there is a difference between a "ice hockey official" and an official NHL official. ∞Who?¿? 22:03, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep as above — we'd lose meaning with the proposal. -Splash^talk 02:08, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• keep I'd vote to make the NHL officials cat a subcat of Ice hockey officials Youngamerican 05:38, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• Do create an :Category:Ice hockey officials category. Do subcategorize :Category:NHL officials there. But do not rename as proposed; while all NHL officials are ice hockey officials, not all ice hockey officials are NHL officials. Bearcat 17:59, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
• RENAME to :Category:National Hockey League officials, as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories). Zzyzx11 (Talk) 14:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
• KEEP. this cat should be a sub-cat of the proposed cat, as said above. DO NOT rename as suggested by the user immediately above here unless the user is willing to iniate the renaming several hundred cats that use initialisms, the use of which is not addressed in the naming convention guidelines (not laws) -Mayumashu 04:03, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
• It is addressed - see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories) under "General naming conventions". Which several hundred cats are you referring to? siafu 16:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was Delete. «»Who?¿?^meta 13:46, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

This category has been nearly depopulated by merges into List of Metal Gear characters. While that list may be split in the near future, it's unlikely that :Category:Metal Gear Solid characters will need a subcat. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 00:19, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. No argument. siafu 16:12, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Uhm.. this is sad. delete. ∞Who?¿? 22:04, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

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