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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 December 10

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= December 10 =

== Category:Lines ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Rename to :Category:Fortification lines. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:58, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

:Propose renaming :Category:Lines to :Category:Fort lines or :Category:Lines of forts

:Nominator's rationale: Rename. Lines is ambiguous. The category is for lines of forts. Rename to either of my suggestions, or something similar. No main article to match to. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:04, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Jacks ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Delete. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:01, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

:Propose renaming :Category:Jacks to :Category:Jack flags or :Category:Jacks (flag)

:Nominator's rationale: Rename. Jack is ambiguous; Jacks links directly to the game. There is no main article to match the name to (main article sectiton is here). I suggest either "Jack flags" or "Jacks (flag)", or something similar. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== In or on the Isle of Man ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Rename. While I may not agree with using in here, that appears to be the consensus. What probably needs to happen is a talk page discussion on how to name categories that cover places and things on islands. That discussion is not going to be resolved here. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:21, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

:Propose renaming :Category:Towns on the Isle of Man to :Category:Towns in the Isle of Man

:Propose renaming :Category:Villages on the Isle of Man to :Category:Villages in the Isle of Man

:Propose renaming :Category:Communications on the Isle of Man to :Category:Communications in the Isle of Man

:Propose renaming :Category:Transport on the Isle of Man to :Category:Transport in the Isle of Man

:Propose renaming :Category:Visitor attractions on the Isle of Man to :Category:Visitor attractions in the Isle of Man

:Propose renaming :Category:Golf clubs and courses on the Isle of Man to :Category:Golf clubs and courses in the Isle of Man

:Propose renaming :Category:Railway stations on the Isle of Man to :Category:Railway stations in the Isle of Man

:Nominator's rationale: Rename, for consistency within the Isle of Man category structure and per convention for categories of these types. I nominated these for renaming in the speedy section but questions were raised, so I've moved it here. These are the only Isle of Man categories that use "on the Isle of Man" when "in FOO" is the standard for other countries and locales. There are many other categories that already use "in the Isle of Man" when that is the convention, including {{cat|Settlements in the Isle of Man}}, which is a parent of the first two; {{cat|Buildings and structures in the Isle of Man}}; which is a parent of the last; {{cat|Public transport in the Isle of Man}} and {{cat|Ferry transport in the Isle of Man}}, which are subcategories of {{cat|Transport on the Isle of Man}}; {{cat|Sport in the Isle of Man}}, which is a parent of the golf clubs one; and others. A complete list follows. I do not think it's a good idea to mix-and-match "in" with "on" in this way. I don't see that there's anything special about the categories that currently use "on" that would suggest that we should make an exception for them. If we want to use "on" for all or most the Isle of Man categories, that could be understandable, but we'd need to change a bunch of the ones that currently use "in". Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:29, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

{{collapse top|Isle of Man categories that use "in the Isle of Man"}}

::*:Category: Buildings and structures in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Airports in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Hill forts in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Lighthouses in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Monuments and memorials in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Museums in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Prisons in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Royal Air Force stations in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Watermills in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Defunct prisons in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Newspapers published in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Tourism in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Castles in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Heritage railways in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Education in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: People by educational institution in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Disasters in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Fires in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Elections in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Years in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: 1923 in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: 1985 in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: 2001 in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: 2002 in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: 2004 in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: 2005 in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: 2006 in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: 2007 in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: 2008 in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: 2009 in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Political parties in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Organisations based in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Religion in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Sport in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Sport in the Isle of Man by sport

::*:Category: Cricket in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Cycle racing in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Football in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Motorsport in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Rugby union in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Sport deaths in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Sports venues in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Motorsport venues in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Cricket administration in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Public transport in the Isle of Man

::*:Category: Cycling in the Isle of Man

{{collapse bottom}}

{{collapse top|Copy of discussion at speedy renaming section}}

  • :Category:Visitor attractions on the Isle of Man to :Category:Visitor attractions in the Isle of Man #4 — Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:53, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
  • :"On" the Isle of Man sounds more natural to me than "in" however for some of these categories I would incline to "of" as it can include historic entities, things which don't lie entirely within, or always within the area talked about. For example the Isle of Man Steam Packet. Rich Farmbrough, 04:35, 10 December 2009 (UTC).
  • None of the other country categories use "on" or "of", including the ones that are islands. The use of "in" is a category convention. Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:05, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • None of the other country categories start with the word "Isle," either. In my mind, it's analogous to whether "the" is inserted before the country name; "on" can be used here intuitively just as we use "The Gambia" instead of "the Gambia" or "Gambia" but "Sudan" instead of "the Sudan."- choster 16:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • OK—I don't see any sense at all to having one different, since "in the Isle of Man" makes as much sense as "in the Solomon Islands", but whatever. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:47, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

{{collapse bottom}}

  • Support Renames I, for one, grew up "in" New York, but "on" Long Island. I do understand the distinction here, but "in" is the general standard, even if it leaves some awkwardly-named categories if applied globally. Either way, we should use one or the other. Alansohn (talk) 04:06, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Support Renames, for consistency. Technically, I think that "in the IOM" is best when referring to the jurisdiction, and "on the IOM" is best when refering to the geographical entity; but the grammatical infelicity of using "in the IOM" for geographical categories is a much less serious problem than inconsistencies across category series. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Support renames. Worth noting that, in theory at least, the articles could refer to items on the Calf of Man (even though it's too small top have many of them in reality). As such, it seems to refer to the entire jurisdiction, so "in" makes sense. In any case, the distinction is blurrier for large islands or ones which have some form of geopolitical identity - "in the Isle of Man" is no stranger than my location in the South Island of New Zealand - or than someone living in Tahiti or in Trinidad (none of which are, by themselves, full nations). Grutness...wha? 23:40, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Changing to strong support. The government of the Isle of Man uses "in" throughout their website ([http://www.gov.im/]). As such, it seems to be the official local usage. Grutness...wha? 22:12, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Prefer "on the Isle of Man", as we are speaking of a solitary island, and in keeping with the form used throughout :Category:Isle of Wight, and more common within the text of just about all of the articles I checked. The distinction that BHG draws is common (contrast :Category:Settlements in Hawaii by island with :Category:Neighborhoods in Manhattan), but I'll grant that there are very few cases where both the geographic feature and the political jurisdiction are known as Isle of Foo.- choster 00:31, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Reverse rename -- It should be the "in" categories that are renamed to "on". I expect that requires a new nomination. The appropriate preposition for an island is "on"; for a city or town it is "in". Peterkingiron (talk) 21:39, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm not convinced that it's that clear cut. A google search gives [http://www.google.com/search?q=%22in+the+isle+of+man%22 18 million hits] for "in the isle of man" and [http://www.google.com/search?q=%22on+the+isle+of+man%22 15 million hits] for "on the isle of man". Since it's essentially a toss-up, we may as well use the Wikipedia standard. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:20, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
  • See also my comment above about its use by the IoM legislature. Grutness...wha? 00:05, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Support rename per Grutness. Might as well go with the official version if we have to pick one. Jafeluv (talk) 11:07, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Louisiana Tech Bulldogs men's basketball ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. — ξxplicit 06:15, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

:{{Lc|Louisiana Tech Bulldogs men's basketball}}

:Nominator's rationale: Delete. Category now empty. Content had previously been two categories. One moved to a newly created category for LA Tech baseball; the other is at the proper category of :Category:Louisiana Tech Bulldogs basketball. "Bulldogs" is used only for the school's men's sports; women's sports uses "Lady Techsters". Dale Arnett (talk) 21:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Delete category is now redundant. Alansohn (talk) 22:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Louisiana Tech Bulldogs men's basketball seasons ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: {{Relisted}} at the December 28 page. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

:Propose renaming :Category:Louisiana Tech Bulldogs men's basketball seasons to :Category:Louisiana Tech Bulldogs basketball seasons

:Nominator's rationale: Rename. Louisiana Tech is one of the relatively few schools where men's and women's athletic programs have radically different nicknames. "Bulldogs" is used solely to refer to men's sports; women's sports use "Lady Techsters". See also Louisiana Tech Bulldogs and Lady Techsters. Dale Arnett (talk) 21:05, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Oppose Rename to match standard used in :Category:College men's basketball teams seasons in the United States. While there are many unique nicknames, we gain little by having some include "men's" while others don't, especially as not all editors will know that the team has a unique nickname for some men's teams. Alansohn (talk) 22:21, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • This isn't "a unique nickname for some men's teams". ALL men's teams are "Bulldogs", and ALL women's teams are "Lady Techsters". — Dale Arnett (talk) 01:51, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I understand the confusion and offer the following explanation of my position here. We can have two approaches here for men's basketball teams: 1) only include the word "men's" when it's needed to distinguish between a women's team at the same college that shares the same nickname, or 2) always include "men's". I support option 2 as a general rule. Alansohn (talk) 03:59, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Hm. Rename. I guess the "men's" is redundant, though I can see why including it for consistency could be desirable. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:12, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Images of sports competitors ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename both. — ξxplicit 06:15, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

:Propose renaming

:*:Category:Images of football players to :Category:Images of footballers

:*:Category:Images of cricket players to :Category:Images of cricketers

:Nominator's rationale: Rename. Players of all types of football are grouped under :Category:Footballers, and players of cricket are under :Category:Cricketers; the children should follow. - choster 21:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Support Renames to match parent articles. Alansohn (talk) 22:22, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Taxation by country ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge :Category:National taxation articles to :Category:Taxation by country. — ξxplicit 06:15, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

:Suggest merging :Category:Taxation by country to :Category:National taxation articles

:Nominator's rationale: Merge. The categories are redundant and should be merged clearly. The question is which is the right name. "National taxation articles" is probably more general and would account for situations like the Republic of China (Taiwan) which isn't recognized as a country by most other countries. Taxman Talk 14:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

:*Then where do you put the article on Taxation in Taiwan when it is created? - Taxman Talk 14:50, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

::*Umm, here and in :Category:Government of the Republic of China? :Category:Categories by country includes many states with limited recognition, as it is useful to do so, including the Palestinian territories and Kosovo. Similarly, the District of Columbia is often included in lists of U.S. states.- choster 04:35, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Merge to :Category:Taxation by country as more standard name. Debresser (talk) 18:57, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
  • REverse merge as the last few people have said. Any category containing "articles" is questionably named. The format "foo by country" is well-recognised for categories. Peterkingiron (talk) 21:42, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Belgian Navy categories ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename all. — ξxplicit 06:15, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

:Propose renaming

::Category:Belgian Naval Component to :Category:Belgian Navy

::Category:Ships of the Belgian Naval Component to :Category:Ships of the Belgian Navy

::Category:Frigates of the Belgian Naval Component to :Category:Frigates of the Belgian Navy

::Category:Mine warfare vessels of the Belgian Naval Component to :Category:Mine warfare vessels of the Belgian Navy

::Category:Minehunters of the Belgian Naval Component to :Category:Minehunters of the Belgian Navy

::Category:Minesweepers of the Belgian Naval Component to :Category:Minesweepers of the Belgian Navy

::Category:Patrol vessels of the Belgian Naval Component to :Category:Patrol vessels of the Belgian Navy

::Category:United States Navy ships transferred to the Belgian Naval Component to :Category:United States Navy ships transferred to the Belgian Navy

::Category:Tripartite class minehunters of the Belgian Naval Component to :Category:Tripartite class minehunters of the Belgian Navy

::Category:Algerine class minesweepers of the Belgian Naval Component to :Category:Algerine class minesweepers of the Belgian Navy

:Nominator's rationale: Rename for consistency with main article, Belgian Navy, recently moved after discussion. — Bellhalla (talk) 11:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Rename all per nominator. Debresser (talk) 18:55, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Rename all per nominator. Surprised the article was under that name at all. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 00:24, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Musical Allusions in James Joyce's 'Ulysses' ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Delete. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:55, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

:{{Lc|Musical Allusions in James Joyce's 'Ulysses'}}

:Nominator's rationale: Delete. Overly narrow categorization. Gilliam (talk) 05:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment And it seems to be overfilled with extra-musical entries too: Hamlet? The Tempest? May be a case for a converting to an article list of cultural allusions in Ulysses (at risk of OR). AllyD (talk) 08:16, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete – it is at times like this that we need Otto to list the various parts of OCAT of which this is in breach, and to remove non-allusions (I doubt if any of them qualifies as an allusion, musical or otherwise). Occuli (talk) 10:49, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong delete, carpet-bomb with high-explosive, launch a nuclear attack on it. etc.
    Regardless of anything that is or is not said in WP:OCAT, this is stunningly bad form of categorisation-by-association. It doesn't matter how significant the allusions to other works are as a part of Ulysses, their significance in Ulysses is not by any stretch of the imagaination a defining characteristic of the works in this category. Letting this sort of category stand would provide a precdent for cluttering up all sorts of articles with categories denoting the fact that they get a mention in some work of fiction, and the resulting clutter would be a serious impediment to navigation. This is alreday covered WP:OCAT#Non-defining_or_trivial_characteristic. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:OCAT. Debresser (talk) 18:55, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

==== Category:Racially motivated violence against First Nations people ====

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge as nominated. I trust that users will continue to work on this area of categorization to resolve some of the issues raised. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:39, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

:Suggest merging :Category:Racially motivated violence against First Nations people to :Category:Violence against Aboriginal women in Canada

:Nominator's rationale: I just created :Category:Violence against Aboriginal women in Canada. I made it a subcategory of the source category, which has just one entry at present, for Helen Betty Osborne. While the two categories have a lot of overlap they are not identical, of course. While doing Wiki work in this area I felt the violence against women angle was key, while metsfan obviously had a different idea. If the consensus is strongly in favor of a reverse merge, I could live with that, too. I just want to make sure we don't have a cluttered overcat situation here, based on what I just did. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 01:09, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Questions – are 'First Nations people' and 'Aboriginal people in Canada' the same thing; and how can 'general violence against women' be a subcat of 'a specific violence against people'? There seem to be several issues here, struggling for resolution. Occuli (talk) 01:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

:*I can certainly answer the first question: First Nations are one of three Aboriginal peoples in Canada, along with Inuit and Métis people (Canada). So yes, making my cat a subcat of Metsfan's is really problematic in that sense. All of the articles currently in the category probably refer to First Nations women at present but the problem of violence against Aboriginal women in Canada, which I believe is a defining grouping, would include Metis and Inuit victims, too. IMO. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 02:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

::Approve: We should merg the two ..but like Shawn says Aboriginal covers all three groups...if at some point down the line the :Category:Violence against Aboriginal women in Canada gets to big we can sub-divide it then..But as it looks now I believe "Aboriginal" should be the wording as we do not wish to exclude anyone or group; and having a Category for just one or two people does not make sense. AS for the comment by Occuli...I think all we can do is categorizes the best we can...and maybe they should fall into multiple cats...But Occuli is right that "Racially motivated violence against First Nations people" is subjective and should be retitled... As for WHY there is 3 groups in Canada is that "First nations" are the first inhabits...Then Inuit migrated to the North area long after First Nations had settled across the country..then we have the Metis That is a 17th century mix race. Buzzzsherman (talk) 02:23, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

:::Oh, and one more thing from me. The new category (mine) would seem to benefit from not advancing any assumptions about the "motivation" for this violence. All the articles in the category to date deal with violence against women; there's at least as much chance that the motivation is misogyny. So I do feel the source category name is a bit POV, in that it makes an assumption about the "motivation" for the violence. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 04:04, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

:::: Well then, we need a super category :Category:Violence against Aboriginal people in Canada which will have various subcats: :Category:Violence against First Nations people, :Category:Violence against Aboriginal women in Canada (neither of which includes the other). As for 'Racially motivated', there is :Category:Racially motivated violence in the United States but nowhere else, although I seem to recall that there was arguably some in South Africa and indeed elsewhere. I would suggest renaming :Category:Racially motivated violence against First Nations people to the more general :Category:Violence against First Nations people. (Helen Betty Osborne would then need to be placed in some 'racism' category. 'Victims of racially motivated crimes' or similar, if such exists. As often the category system is a mess.) Occuli (talk) 11:16, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.