Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 September 19

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Delete. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

:{{Lc|Cold Neptunes}}

:Nominator's rationale: Delete Category with unclear membership criteria. Main article was previously deleted, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cold Neptune. Icalanise (talk) 22:10, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• Delete it was established that the creator of the Cold Neptune article had invented the term, further, Neptune itself is cold, and the term seems to mean the same thing as the "ice giant" category that is actually used in science. 76.66.200.95 (talk) 04:09, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Delete. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

:{{Lc|Cold Jupiters}}

:Nominator's rationale: Delete: Category with unclear membership criteria, main article for this category was deleted for this reason (see deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cold Neptune). Icalanise (talk) 22:08, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• Delete Jupiter is itself "cold", since the term Hot Jupiter was invented in comparison with the real Jupiter, hence the real Jupiter is cold. This term, "cold Jupiter" is also not used. 76.66.200.95 (talk) 04:11, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Keep/no consensus. Dana boomer (talk) 18:48, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

:Propose merging :Category:Business schools in the United States insular areas to :Category:Business schools in the United States

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge. Extra layer of categorization not need for single category :Category:Business schools in Puerto Rico. (If kept it needs renaming to :Category:Business schools in United States insular areas). Tassedethe (talk) 08:34, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

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:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — ξ^xplicit 19:42, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Weak Keep If kept the category should also be a subcat of :Category:Universities and colleges in United States insular areas, which also has a subcat for Law Schools with just Puerto Rico in it Hugo999 (talk) 01:37, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Delete. Dana boomer (talk) 20:03, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

:{{Lc|Phocid dynasty}}

:Nominator's rationale: Delete. There never was a "Phocid dynasty" in Byzantium [http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=%22Phocid+dynasty%22&btnG=Search+Books], [http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=%22phokid+dynasty%22&btnG=Search+Books]. The family of Nikephoros I had no relation with the Phokas family, and in most books they are listed as a "non-dynastic" group of rulers [http://books.google.com/books?id=2X8LtjDLNl8C&lpg=PR3&dq=Byzantine%20dynasties&pg=PA729#v=onepage&q=Byzantine%20dynasties&f=false]. This is most probably the result of a mix-up with Nikephoros II Phokas, but he established no dynasty either. Constantine ✍ 15:22, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Delete. Dana boomer (talk) 15:52, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

:{{Lc|United States Supreme Court case litigants}}

:Nominator's rationale: Delete, overbroad and indiscriminate, and trivial for many of those included. Please see Wikiproject discussion. While there are undoubtedly a few individuals who are notable only because of their involvement in a SCOTUS case (such as Dred Scott), this category does not target them. Instead, the group of all litigants to all SCOTUS cases would include a wide swath of individuals, corporations, non-profit organizations, U.S. government agencies, foreign governments, and probably every State in the Union (just browse :Category:United States Supreme Court cases to get a sense of how large a group that would be), all equally litigants. And when you consider that litigants to a case include far more than just the lead party (i.e., the party whose name shows up in a short form of the case), that group expands exponentially once you expand the "et al".

Further problems arise because of nominal parties (those who are named to a lawsuit by virtue of their office, not because they have anything personally at stake): this includes prison wardens in habeas cases, heads of executive departments whose regulations are challenged, presidents, etc., and as the category's creator included some articles based only on that status,[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Ashcroft&diff=380195388&oldid=379439314] I don't have any hope that nuance could be used to exclude them.

And there's a further threshold issue: this category does not even target litigants to notable cases, i.e. cases in which SCOTUS handed down a full opinion. So this would further be flooded by litigants in the many thousands of cases that are disposed of by summary orders and possibly even those in which cert. is denied (filing a cert petition with SCOTUS and opposing it certainly qualify as litigation). So the category is simply overinclusive and impossible to target for those few for whom it is significant. postdlf (talk) 15:04, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• Move to :Category:United States Supreme Court opinion case lead litigants or such other name as better describes the concept. Rich Farmbrough, 15:19, 19 September 2010 (UTC).

:*Could you elaborate? Because that doesn't address the flaws, and it's an arbitrary division. The "lead litigant" is simply the one whose name is put first in the case caption; it's not necessarily a party that has any more or less to lose. postdlf (talk) 15:37, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• Delete This isn't just a matter of giving the category a better name. It is inherently subject to one of two problems. Either it becomes enormous to the point of being unhelpful because it contains every state, many federal government agencies, many agency heads at various times in history, lots of major companies, etc. Or it must be limited by some unclear and subjective criteria that no one has even proposed yet. This category is a bad idea.--Chaser2 (talk) 23:31, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

* Delete - for the vast majority of litigants being a litigant is not a defining characteristic. As noted, trying to draw a line somewhere to limit the catgeory's scope is of necessity arbitrary. Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 05:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC) Struck comment of indef-blocked sockpuppet. QuAzGaA 15:14, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

• Keep and fill. for 2 of the 4 cases, being a litigant was the defining category. There is obviously the opportunity for multiple others to be added. DGG ( talk ) 03:49, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
• That has already been commented on. How do you propose to address the problems that were raised? postdlf (talk) 04:02, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

:* That the characteristic may be more or less defining for some small sub-segment of its potential population does not mean that the categorization scheme is itself worthwhile. The United States of America is a frequent litigant before the Court (every federal prosecution is "United States v." Someone). Is "Supreme Court litigant" going to be among the first few things someone thinks of when considering what defines the US? The first hundred things? The first thousand? Individual federal agencies and departments are frequent litigants. Is the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development in any way defined by having litigated before SCOTUS? Individual agency or department heads are routinely sued in their official capacity, even though they rarely if ever have any direct involvement in the litigation. Are Cabinet secretaries defined by this? There are even cases in which inanimate objects like US currency and birth control devices have been the named "defendant" in a legal proceeding (none off the top of my head that went before the Supreme Court but they could have). Is being the "litigant" in a court case defining of US currency? Yet all of these would legitimately be members of this category and would bloat the category beyond all possible usefulness. Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 23:24, 24 September 2010 (UTC) Struck comment of indef-blocked sockpuppet. QuAzGaA 15:12, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

• Delete per nom and Chaser2. This would either be ridiculously large or it would have arbitrary criteria, neither of which appears to be a good idea. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 03:44, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: Keep. Dana boomer (talk) 18:52, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

:{{Lc|Irrigation in the Dominican Republic}}

:Nominator's rationale: One article is not enough to warrant a category. Svick (talk) 14:01, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• Keep – part of the established :Category:Irrigation by country, several of which have only 1 or 2 articles. An upmerge to its 3 parents would be the alternative (not delete). Occuli (talk) 19:42, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
• Keep per Occuli. The irrigation categories mentioned above were created prematurely since they could have remained in the next level up. As WP grows articles will be created that will populated these categories. Indeed, such articles may already exist. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 00:38, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
• Keep – about half (14 of 27) in :Category:Irrigation by country have only 1 article, but the category means that they are a subcategory of both Agriculture and Water/Water Supply for that country Hugo999 (talk) 01:18, 20 September 2010 (UTC).
• Upmerge to parents. Having a single-item category with the same name as the only article itself is redundant and unneeded. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 03:25, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

:*There is a chance that other articles will be written that can fit into these categories. If the category is deleted and such articles are written we will have to recreate the category and edit the current articles accordingly. While that is not such a big deal I say we should keep them now that they exist. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 05:32, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

::*We don't ever pre-emptively create categories "just in case". As you say, it's not a big deal, and it's also not a big deal to wait until the category is needed to have it created. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 12:03, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Keep as named. Dana boomer (talk) 20:01, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

:Propose renaming :Category:Suffrage campaign in the United Kingdom to :Category:Women's suffrage in the United Kingdom

:Nominator's rationale: Rename. match convention and related article. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 10:13, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose rename The current category entries are wider than the campaign for women's suffrage, extending back to earlier campaigns for :Universal suffrage. Not averse to a new subcategory of the suggested name, which would carry the majority of the category articles. AllyD (talk) 15:18, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose Per AllyD. Also later campaigns for universal suffrage (non-graduates, non-ratepayers, 18-21 year olds). Rich Farmbrough, 15:33, 19 September 2010 (UTC).
• Oppose per above, though I propose creation of sub-category on women's suffrage (and other groups if there is enough material). Roscelese (talk) 19:29, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Merge all. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:39, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

:Propose merging :Category:5 megapixel camera phones, :Category:8 megapixel camera phones, :Category:12 megapixel camera phones to :Category:Camera phones

:Nominator's rationale: Merge. Megapixel count for a mobile phone is quite irrelevant for camera phone quality and is a somewhat deceptive figure of merit. This may be different for compact cameras, because the space in a phone is always cramped. Other factors like presence of autofocus, and image sensor size, focal length are far more important for a camera phone. Overcategorization. Andries (talk) 09:23, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

:I think categories like :Category:autofocus camera phones and :Category:Xenon flash camera phones should be created, because they mean something in practice. Andries (talk) 12:59, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Keep/no consensus. Dana boomer (talk) 15:53, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

:{{Lc|Boats and rafts made of plastic bottles}}

:Nominator's rationale: Delete. Highly unlikely to be populated with many articles. Two artilces are in it at present and one, Charles J. Moore, is neither a boat nor a raft made of plastic bottles. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 06:52, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

:Delete unless someone can create, and get past AfD, Campaign to convert Charles J. Moore to a boats and/or raft made of plastic bottles. Rich Farmbrough, 15:37, 19 September 2010 (UTC).

:Keep or rename: Added beginnings of a few articles-- what I could in time available. It appears that art project and community-oriented events featuring these boats will be ongoing over time; more standardized designs for small, functional craft are also starting to appear. Re: notability, two of these vessels have crossed an ocean, Plastiki and Son of Town Hall; one of the junk raft regattas, "Swimming Cities of Serenissima", was associated with a major international art exhibition, the Venice Biennale. The "junk raft" and "plastic bottle boat" phenomenon appears to straddle art world, enviro, 3rd world, community recreation, and is not unique to any one country or culture.

:Would probably be better renamed as: Category:Junk rafts, a more generic term. Djembayz (talk) 22:15, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Merge. Dana boomer (talk) 19:57, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

:Propose merging :Category:Cathead to :Category:Cathead templates

:Nominator's rationale: Merge, two categories which cover the same type of template. Eastlaw ^talk ⁄ _contribs 06:51, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• Merge both to :Category:Category header templates. Much clearer name. Rich Farmbrough, 15:12, 19 September 2010 (UTC).
• Merge to :Category:Category header templates. That is most assuredly not what I thought the category referred to.--Mike Selinker (talk) 14:05, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
• Merge both to :Category:Category header templates per above. Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 14:33, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename.--Mike Selinker (talk) 18:24, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

:Propose renaming :Category:American legal phrases to :Category:American legal terms

:Propose renaming :Category:French legal phrases to :Category:French legal terms

:Propose renaming :Category:Scots law legal phrases to :Category:Scots law legal terms

:Propose renaming :Category:Latin legal phrases to :Category:Latin legal terms

:Nominator's rationale: Rename - the parent is :Category:Legal terms but there is diversity among the siblings. Rename all to "terms". Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 07:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC) Struck comment of indef-blocked sockpuppet. QuAzGaA 15:15, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

• oppose phrases is more descriptive of the contents. Consistency for consistency's sake benefits no one. There are reason for consistency, but consistency is not one of them. If you want to rename categories, you need a better reason. --Bejnar (talk) 04:54, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

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:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — ξ^xplicit 04:55, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

* Can you explain why some categories for terms should use "terms" while other categories for terms should use "phrases"? Generally categories for similar concepts should use similar language; can you explain why the language used for these categories should diverge? Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 09:03, 19 September 2010 (UTC) Struck comment of indef-blocked sockpuppet. QuAzGaA 15:16, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

:The easy answer is that different people made them and different people think differently. Don't let it bother you. --Bejnar (talk) 04:03, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

• support I have looked at some of these and most I have seen are clearly legal terms: the label used when referring to a particular concept in law. "Legal term" is the common usage with which I am familiar. There are a few which are not strictly speaking "terms", for example "Lex inuista non est lex" which is described in the article as a "maxim". Mirokado (talk) 15:05, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

:There are more than a few which would only by convenience be called "legal terms". Phrases is broader, and there is no need to overcategorize this area. If you really want change, change the catgeories with "legal terms" to "legal phrases". --Bejnar (talk) 04:03, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

::Or "legal terms and phrases." postdlf (talk) 05:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

::: I would note that in the US at least the phrase "legal phrase" is not used within the legal community, at least not in any jurisdiction I'm aware of. I can't speak to the situation in France, Scotland or Ancient Rome. Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 18:11, 22 September 2010 (UTC) Struck comment of indef-blocked sockpuppet. QuAzGaA 15:17, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

::::Run it in Lexis or Westlaw. --75.161.96.45 (talk) 03:42, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support to match parent category. Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 14:30, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Keep as named. Dana boomer (talk) 19:53, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

:Propose renaming :Category:English legal terms to :Category:Legal terms of England and Wales

:Nominator's rationale: Rename - current name is ambiguous; I would expect it to mean any legal term in the English language regardless of the country where it's used. Could also be :Category:Legal terms of England and Wales since England and Wales is the jurisdiction or if there are terms that are used exclusively in one or the other a new category specifically for Wales can be created and populated. Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 06:57, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

:* In thinking about this I think that the jurisdiction level rename is most appropriate. Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 04:17, 17 September 2010 (UTC) Struck comment of indef-blocked sockpuppet. QuAzGaA 15:18, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose This category has nothing to do with "English language", many of the terms are Latin or French. If changed many of these terms which are legal terms in South Africa (Anglo-Dutch law) and the United States will have to have added categories for the various jurisdictions. Some English legal terms are no longer used in England or Wales, but are preserved in foreign jurisdictions. Should such terms be treated differently? Right now this is not such a large category (74 entries) that it requires subdividing. --Bejnar (talk) 04:47, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

:* I understand that the category is not intended for all English-language legal terms. That is precisely the reason for the nomination, because a reasonable person would easily be confused by the category name, believing it to mean "legal terms in the English language". If a legal term was at one time used in England and Wales it should still be categorized as such even if the term is no longer used. If they are used in other jurisdictions then the articles should be categorized as such. Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 20:17, 18 September 2010 (UTC) Struck comment of indef-blocked sockpuppet. QuAzGaA 15:18, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

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:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — ξ^xplicit 04:55, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

::"Legal" is rather a loose word here. What is an "English illegal term"? How do we classify "Unclean hands"? In pari delicto is described as "phrase", "term", "defence", "principle" and "maxim" in its lead. Maybe we should seek input from the appropriate wikiproject? Rich Farmbrough, 15:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC).

::: I don't understand this comment. A "legal term" is a term with a meaning within the practice of law. "Unclean hands" is an excellent example of why this category needs to be dealt with because of the name ambiguity. Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 18:14, 22 September 2010 (UTC) Struck comment of indef-blocked sockpuppet. QuAzGaA 15:18, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Keep/no consensus. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

:Propose renaming :Category:Germany tourism templates to :Category:Tourism templates

:Nominator's rationale: Rename. Small category with limited growth potential. Rename to allow more pages to be included. Can always be split into by country later if needed. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:38, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

:Oppose for now, instead upmerge :Category:Baden-Württemberg tourism templates into :Category:Germany tourism templates. Rich Farmbrough, 15:51, 19 September 2010 (UTC).

::Then this should simply be deleted as OC small with the contents all moved to :Category:Travel and tourism templates. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:31, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Dana boomer (talk) 19:51, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

:Propose renaming :Category:CSI (television franchise) to :Category:CSI (franchise)

:Nominator's rationale: Rename. Rename to match main article. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:51, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support to match parent article. Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 14:24, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

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