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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2015 March 27

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= March 27 =

== Category:Carlito's Way ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: keep. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:14, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Carlito's Way}}

:Nominator's rationale: This hardly needs a category. Also, all of the supercategories are inappropriate. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:30, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Keep this is a franchise category, for the "Carlito's Way" franchise, so involves 2 books, 2 films and a character article. Recategorize into the franchise category tree. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 05:12, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I've recategorized the category -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 05:17, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Keep , as creator. Stefanomione (talk) 09:20, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment -- There might just be enough for one category, but only just. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:15, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Alumni of the Hong Kong Polytechnic University ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Merge. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:02, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Alumni of the Hong Kong Polytechnic University to :Category:Hong Kong Polytechnic University alumni

:Nominator's rationale: I just created :Category:Hong Kong Polytechnic University alumni, before realizing :Category:Alumni of the Hong Kong Polytechnic University exists. Most alumni categories seem to have the word alumni after the school name. Zanhe (talk) 21:14, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

:* I'm neutral in all ENGVAR matters, so support merge in either direction. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:21, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

::*It's not really a real-life ENGVAR matter: it's only in Wikipedia where the categories for the UK and some of its present and former colonies have adopted this name format. There's nothing inherently UK English about "Alumni of FOO" as compared to "FOO alumni", and there's nothing US English about "FOO alumni" as compared to "Alumni of FOO". It's quite daft/crazy to have two different formats, and they really should be standardiz/sed. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:39, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

:::* That will require a separate nomination, I guess. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

::::*Yeah, it would. It was discussed once, but neither side wanted to give up "their" format. Ridiculous. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:02, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Merge or Reverse Merge No preference for the name, but this is one category.RevelationDirect (talk) 11:53, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Merge per nom. It was shown in previous discussions that the claim this was an engvar thing is false. What it really is is an example of "we get to name categories for places related to us", but should not be really followed.John Pack Lambert (talk) 07:05, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Merge into XXX alumni Both formats already exist for Hong Kong. XXX alumni is our more common alumni format. gidonb (talk) 13:35, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Defunct organizations based in Moscow ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. MER-C 12:58, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

:* Propose upmerge :Category:Defunct organizations based in Moscow to :Category:Defunct organizations of Russia

:Nominator's rationale: upmerge per :WP:SMALLCAT, besides the one article concerns a former Russian ministry that is not related to the city of Moscow. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:33, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Support no clear indication that Moscow organisations are more relevant to group together than a broader Russian one. A better solution would be to group by type, e.g. :Category:Defunct governmental organizations of Russia (I would give my left arm to stop people defaulting to using geographic and yearly child categories, rather than topical ones which are most clearly much, much more definitive than a city...) SFB 18:45, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per smallcat. Also the one item in the category is essentially an all-Russian one. gidonb (talk) 13:39, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Madras University alumni ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:00, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Madras University alumni to :Category:University of Madras alumni

:Nominator's rationale: Same institution — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1006:B129:DF07:14E8:C473:9B00:7111 (talk) 19:40, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Merge or Reverse Merge No preference for the name, but this is one category. RevelationDirect (talk) 11:54, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Reverse merge I did a study and figured out that even with Oxford putting alumni at the end was the common practice. We should just adopt it everywhere.John Pack Lambert (talk) 07:06, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Merge as suggested since the school's name is University of Madras. gidonb (talk) 13:41, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Historic Russian communities ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 12:48, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

:* Propose delete :Category:Historic Russian communities

:Nominator's rationale: delete per :WP:NONDEF. The (one) article in this category doesn't deal with a Russian community or any other community. Also, there's not an article about Historic Russian communities. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:30, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Delete That at various times Odessa had various % of its population who were in some sense "Russian", can be covered in the article. It is not a defining characteristic that is categorizable.John Pack Lambert (talk) 07:09, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Delete as nondefining and POV trap. gidonb (talk) 13:43, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Streets in Tampere ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Merge. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:04, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

:* Propose Dual Upmerging :Category:Streets in Tampere to :Category:Tampere and :Category:Streets in Finland

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. Tampere is a city of 225,000 people and the category only has one article so it doesn't currently aid navigation. I'm not seeing any other notable streets, at least using Google in English, so the growth potential is limited. No objection to recreating later if more articles appear though. RevelationDirect (talk) 10:21, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

:Note: Notified JIP as the category creator and this discussion has been included in WikiProject Finland. – RevelationDirect (talk) 10:21, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

:Comment: 225,000 people, not 225,00. Just to clarify that Tampere is quite a big city by Finnish standards. JIP | Talk 11:13, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

:: Oops, fixed it. RevelationDirect (talk) 13:59, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Merge without prejudice to recreate if we get significantly more articles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:01, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

:*Please reconsider, given the fact that not all Tampere streets that we had were included in the category. gidonb (talk) 16:48, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Keep Essentially a fine subcat of Tampere and Streets in Finland. It was made somewhat early. gidonb (talk) 13:50, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I have populated the category with a second street that was previously overlooked. There is potential for additional growth. gidonb (talk) 14:13, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Also note that, since this nomination was proposed, two additional 1-article Finnish street categories have been created: :Category:Streets in Oulu and :Category:Boulevards in Finland. RevelationDirect (talk) 16:11, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Merge per nom. Category can still be recreated if more articles appear. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:32, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Russian Orthodox churches ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. MER-C 12:10, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

:* Propose merge :Category:Russian Orthodox churches to :Category:Russian Orthodox church buildings

:Nominator's rationale: Both categories serve the same purpose. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:15, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Weak support Are there variations of churches within Russian Orthodoxy? That is, do multiple congregations of the Russian Orthodox church exist? Or is it a single church? If it's a single church, then support, otherwise keep this category. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:31, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

:* Each article in these both categories is about a church building. There are variations of churches within Russian Orthodoxy, mostly autonomous or self-governing churches by nationality (e.g. Japanese, Ukrainian), these are to be found at a a higher level in the WP tree, namely in :Category:Russian Orthodoxy and its child :Category:Russian Orthodox Church. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:49, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Support Difference unclear. gidonb (talk) 13:52, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Coats of arms by charge ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. – Fayenatic London 16:29, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting :Category:Coats of arms by charge and its subcategories

{{collapse top|nominated categories}}

{{collapse bottom}}

:Nominator's rationale: Delete?. This is a relatively new scheme being developed. It's far from complete right now. I think in terms of heraldry, it makes sense to divide things up like this—this sort of categorization for flags and coats of arms is routine on Wiki commons—but because coats of arms are notoriously "busy" things, any single article about a coat of arms could be in quite a few of these categories. Before this scheme is developed further I thought it would be good to discuss whether its a scheme that we want to have or not. I'm more or less neutral at this stage.

:If kept, I can foresee the need to rename some of these for clarity (eg, {{c|Coats of arms with horns}}—musical or mammalian?) and perhaps merge or rename some that may be overspecific (eg, {{c|Coats of arms with lambs of God}}—why not just {{c|Coats of arms with sheep}}, since many on coats of arms are paschal? Why have both {{c|Coats of arms with lions}} and {{c|Coats of arms with lion heads}}?) But these issues can wait and need not be addressed in this particular discussion. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:38, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Delete. Many coats of arms have many things on them. I looked at a random example and found roses, lions, grass, castle, piles, crowns, shield, suit of armour, sun ... i.e. having any particular image is a WP:NON-DEFINING characteristic. It's much better to categorize in a "Coats of arms of ..." category (and have an article/list about, for example, roses in heraldry). Particular problems with this category scheme are that it's likely to put articles in many categories (with consequences like watchlist noise as editors disagree about whether an article belongs in the with-ships or with-boats category), it may not be clear what an image is of (e.g. if a mythical creature makes up a small part of a coat of arms), and articles may be placed in this category scheme instead of in the existing category schemes (e.g. :Category:Coats of arms by country). That Commons has a particular category (e.g. red automobiles[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Red_automobiles]) does not mean that such a category is appropriate in an encyclopedia. DexDor (talk) 06:55, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

:Another reason why this is a bad form of categorization is that each "Coats of arms with foos" category gets placed under the corresponding "Foos" category (e.g. :Category:Trees or :Category:Fish) thus adding to the clutter on those categories. A fictional fish (example) can be considered to be within the topic of fish, but a coat of arms (example) ? Pictures of many things appear on coats of arms (e.g. windmill, aircraft ...) so if this category scheme was completed thousands of "high-level" categories would have a coats-of-arms-with subcat. DexDor (talk) 07:14, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

::You say "another reason why this is a bad form..." but say nothing about why this is "bad". What is the problem you see with categories having a subcategory with coats of arms? Of course coats of arms with fish will be of interest for anyone with a more than just passing interest in fish. Snowsuit Wearer (talk|contribs) 01:11, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

:::To repeat "...thus adding to the clutter on those categories". Do you really think that, for example, Coat of arms of Thunder Bay is within the topic of fish? DexDor (talk) 06:51, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

::::Yes, I think so. Snowsuit Wearer (talk|contribs) 20:40, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

:::::@Snowsuit Wearer - That coat of arms also includes (amongst other things) a shirt, a beard, a pipe, a flag, a portcullis. Do you think that article belongs in, for example, :Category:Facial hair ? DexDor (talk) 20:59, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Weak Preference for Listify Grouping visual images by what they contain is probably defining but may run into subjectivity issues. I would lean toward listifying. RevelationDirect (talk) 18:24, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Note An earlier nomination about categorizing flags by color may raise similar issues. Your thoughts (pro/con/other) would be appreciated at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2015 March 6#Category:Red and white flags. Thanks. RevelationDirect (talk) 12:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Keep, these categories are for easier identification of coats of arms. An encyclopedia should have easy access to information. If you see a coat of arms with a particular image in it, you should be able to find it here, even if you have no idea what country, city etc. the arms stand for. Articles should of course be placed both in these categories and in the geographically named categories. I see no problem in having many categories for an article and the articles on heraldic arms usually do not have many categories. There are categories like this on Swedish Wikipedia which seem to have been around for years without being questioned there. Snowsuit Wearer (talk|contribs) 01:00, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

::If the wp categorization system was for easier identification of things then we would have categories like "tall people with red hair", "birds with yellow beaks", "paintings with a tree in the background" etc (note: categorizing things by their appearance is sometimes more appropriate on Commons). Coats of arms can have 10 or more different things on them which would mean some articles being in many categories. Problems with categorization schemes that put lots of category tags on articles include the extra maintenance effort, incompletely populated categories, watchlist noise, and it's more likely that an article isn't placed in a "normal" category (a person categorizing an article may put it in a "with a castle" category instead of putting it in the "of Fooshire" category). DexDor (talk) 06:51, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Keep: Emblems in heraldry have meanings with more detail than simple color, this is a legitimate search criterion, the category enhances navigability. Montanabw(talk) 21:08, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Keep: Coat of Arms or Emblems or Seals Are Important To. National Names 2000 (talk) 09:01, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Delete as these are non-defining and often unrelated. Like categorizing companies that have squares in their logos. They would just create category clutter. It is an interesting topic (I like to browse thru sometimes), but Commons does it better. Renata (talk) 03:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Delete in the spirit of :WP:SHAREDNAME, this concerns the categorization of articles based on trivial shared characteristics. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:44, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Keep as defining the coats of arms. This is how the coats are often described. gidonb (talk) 13:56, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Keep - these are defining features that are fundamental to the meaning, and are a key organizing principle for interpretationSadads (talk) 20:26, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.