Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 August 24

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: keep. The option to nominate the entire tree for deletion is available. ℯxplicit 04:07, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Climbs in cycle racing in the United Kingdom}}

:Nominator's rationale: WP:NON-DEFINING - The articles (e.g. Cadbury Hill, Leith Hill) in this category are not specifically about cycling (many activities can take place at these locations) and are well-categorised by hills-of-county etc. DexDor ^(talk) 20:54, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

• Keep as part of more broader {{cat|Climbs in cycle racing}}. 91.124.117.194 (talk) 12:34, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
• I will support deleting when the entire tree is nominated. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:43, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Kept. Timrollpickering 20:24, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Satanism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Satanism

{{Cot|other similar categories}}

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Protestantism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Protestantism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Adventism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Adventism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Anglicanism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Anglicanism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Anglican bishop converts to Roman Catholicism to :Category:Anglican bishop converts to the Catholic Church

:* Propose renaming :Category:Anglican priest converts to Roman Catholicism to :Category:Anglican priest converts to the Catholic Church

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Baptist denominations to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Baptist denominations

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Calvinism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Calvinism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Congregationalism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Congregationalism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Mennonitism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Mennonitism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Moravianism to :Category:Converts to the Catholi Church from Moravianism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Evangelicalism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Evangelicalism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Lutheranism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Lutheranism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Methodism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Methodism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Quakerism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Quakerism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Shia Islam to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Shia Islam

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Islam to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Islam

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Eastern Orthodoxy to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Eastern Orthodoxy

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Eastern Catholicism to :Category:Converts to the Latin Church from Eastern Catholicism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Unitarianism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Unitarianism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Shinto to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Shinto

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Scientology to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Scientology

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from animism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from animism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from pagan religions to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from pagan religions

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Oriental Orthodoxy to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Oriental Orthodoxy

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Judaism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Judaism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Hinduism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Hinduism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Druzism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Druzism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Catholic Independent denominations to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Independent Catholic denominations

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Buddhism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Buddhism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Bosnian Church to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from the Bosnian Church

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from atheism or agnosticism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from atheism or agnosticism

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church

{{Cob}}

:Nominator's rationale: Per List of converts to the Catholic Church, :Category:Conversion to the Catholic Church, and :Category:Catholic Church. Converting to the Catholic Church essentially means being in full communion with the Holy See. Any adherence to a particular church is at best secondary, in either case redundant to encyclopedic relevance at least at this stage. If you want to add such a category tree, sure, but this above proposal is simply in line with how the archaic formula :Category:Roman Catholicism equals :Catholic Church, just as Roman Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church, and nothing else. Again, to start a debate about the difference perspectives on the Latin Church#Name will only result in confusion and contention, and is kindly asked to be dealt with elsewhere. Please note: That is a discussion for another, hypothetical, separate category tree branch. Not this one, which deals with the category tree immediately subject to the Catholic Church; :Category:Catholic Church that is. Thanks! Chicbyaccident (talk) 18:44, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

• Reaction in three points:

:# Support dropping Roman per this earlier discussion.

:# Oppose moving Catholicism to Catholic Church for consistency, none of the subcategories in the converts tree refers to a particular church.

:# (as an exception of the previous point) if kept, support :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Eastern Catholicism to :Category:Converts to the Latin Church from Eastern Catholicism and :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Catholic Independent denominations to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Independent Catholic denominations though I would also support deletion of these two categories since I can't see cases of conversion here. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:51, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - one converts to or from a religion, not a church. The names of both List of converts to the Catholic Church and :Category:Conversion to the Catholic Church represent no wider consensus as they were concocted out of process by Chicbyaccident: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_converts_to_Catholicism&action=history 1] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category%3AConversion_to_Catholicism&action=history 2]. Oculi (talk) 20:38, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
• : I agree with {{Ping|Oculi}}, these need to be moved back. Place Clichy (talk) 22:11, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
• :: Theses were exceptionately moved so per WP:BOLD - and has been maintained in that state for more than one and two years, respectively. However, if you want to make a move request to prove a WP:POINT, sure, feel free. Conversation is formally speaking full communion with the Holy See, in accordance with Catholic ecclesiology. Perhaps you were reading the wrong article; Protestant ecclesiology? In either case, its message should be applied to Protestantism and its various denominations - not the Catholic Church. Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:34, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose - this changes the scope of the categories. :Category:Converts to Catholicism is currently diffused between :Category:Converts to Eastern Catholicism (4 C, 2 P) and :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism (18 C, 610 P), as are all the subcategories. The category description reads : {{xt|A list of well-known converts to various rites of the Catholic Church. See :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism for converts known to have become Roman-rite Catholics.}} Moving the Roman-rite categories one level up breaks everything. Place Clichy (talk) 22:11, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
• : Perhaps I was unclear. This discussion and rename request pertains solely to Catholic Church in its most general sense; :Category:Catholic Church that is. Please feel free to start discussions relating to taxonomy of :Category:Latin Church and :Category:Eastern Catholicism/:Category:Eastern Catholic Churches, however, for general convenience, please keep/start those discussions in other locations than this one. Here, they will only result in confusion and contention, and is there kindly asked to be dealt with elsewhere. Thank you very much! Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:44, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
• :: Your answer does not address the changing of scope suggested by this move request. In this category tree at least, "Roman Catholicism" means Roman-rite Catholicism. Changing it to "Catholicism" or "Catholic Church" gives it a larger scope, which is a mistake. In your answer you seem to suggest instead to rename Converts from XXX to Catholicism (which also exists, see :Category:Converts to Catholicism and subcategories) to Converts to the Catholic Church. If this was your intention, feel free to withdraw this discussion and open a new one. Place Clichy (talk) 13:04, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
• ::: I have never read about people who regard themselves specifically a member of the Latin Church while not regarding Eastern Catholics as fellow church members. Of course in the structure of the categories there should be separate subcategories for Eastern Catholicism when it comes to history and liturgy, but otherwise not much diffusion between Latin and Eastern Catholicism is useful. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:53, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
• :::: In terms of biographical articles, when the information is known, it is better to precise this information when we know it. For instance, if an Orthodox converts explicitly to the Roman / Latin Church (however you chose to call it) rather than Eastern Catholicism (the case of Bessarion comes to mind), then this information has encyclopedic value and should be reflected in the categories. Merging these categories with Converts to Catholicism at large, which mostly contains people for which this information is not known, unsure or inapplicable, is a loss of information. Place Clichy (talk) 19:02, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
• ::::: {{ping|Place Clichy}}. You'free to advocate development of separate :Category:Latin Church and :Category:Eastern Catholicism category trees. However, is it too much to ask for to keep that particular church variable discussion aside from this one, in order to not mud it? This discussion pertains to :Category:Catholic Church, which clearly has a longstanding raison d'être, along with far-reaching category tree - including for conversion and converts. Afterwards, feel free to branch that however you like, but would you please let this discussion pertain to that very top category tree branch, please? That said, on the side note, your arguments for how you think the particular churches category tree should be treated are very welcome at: Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholicism)#Latin_Church (which notably currently lacks WP:CONSENSUS contrary to your assertions). Chicbyaccident (talk) 16:25, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
• :::::: {{Ping|Chicbyaccident}} The trouble is that you nominated :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism and subcats for renaming, but your answer applies to :Category:Converts to Catholicism (a mother-category) instead. :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism is a sub-category of :Category:Roman Catholics, which is itself a sub-category of :Category:Latin Church. Feel free to suggest renaming of Converts from XXX to Catholicism to Converts from XXX to the Catholic Church and of Converts from XXX to Roman Catholicism to any vocable of your choice which uses "Latin Church", if this has your preference. I'm not sure that I would agree with the new proposal, but at least it would be coherent with your rationale and it would not change the scope of these longstanding categories. I also gave an answer at the other discussion page you suggested. Place Clichy (talk) 18:08, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
• ::::::: I'm not sure you and quite many here get it right. The essential part of adherence to the Catholic Church is full communion with the Pope, not which rite you employ or jurisdiction. If you are admitted by a bishop to a diocese, you are admitted to all the church, independent of whether jurisdiction (Latin Church or Eastern Catholic Churches) the bishop formally belongs to. It seems many of the commentators on this request fails to assimilate this, and thus makes it more complicated than it has to be. I would therefore caution against hastely closing this nomination before all commentators are on terms about what we are discussing. Thanks! Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:43, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose - needless change, the Catholic Church is the organization but Catholicism is the movement, sort of how we have :Category:Latter Day Saints but we have :Category:Converts to Mormonism. Also per WP:COMMONNAME, most sources I have seen said "Person X converted to Catholicism" not "Person X joined the Catholic Church" Inter&anthro (talk) 03:32, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
• :Reply to this notion above, to the comment of {{u|Place Clichy}}. Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:39, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose One converts to a religion, not a church. I propose to speedy close this as a proposal without factual merit. Debresser (talk) 17:39, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
• :The religion Christianity is divided into multiple Christian denominations. Are you saying these are irrelevant to specify? As for Catholicism, it redirects to Catholic Church. As a consequence, its seems like your argument could use an overhaul, in accordance with category naming practices. Chicbyaccident (talk) 16:19, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
• Comment. Have above opposing commentators reviewed Talk:Catholic_Church_in_Armenia#Requested_move_2_October_2016? Chicbyaccident (talk) 15:49, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 20:21, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Wildlife of Sumatra to :Category:Biota of Sumatra

• Propose renaming :Category:Wildlife of Siberia to :Category:Biota of Siberia

:Nominator's rationale: More standard name for such categories. DexDor ^(talk) 15:08, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support renaming. Consistency in these categories is important; this is a classic NotWith construction without considering the existing framework. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:50, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support - per the Shetland case. Oculi (talk) 20:42, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
• Comment I agree with the need for consistency but this one uses Biota of, and the one below uses Fauna of. No views either way. Twiceuponatime (talk) 10:24, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

::They are different: "Biota" is all wildlife, including animals or plants, whereas "Fauna" is just animals. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:30, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

:: The one below is a subcat of :Category:Fauna of China, so has to be fauna. The 2 above are subcats of :Category:Biota of XXXX, so might well include plants. Oculi (talk) 12:43, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: speedily deleted under WP:G2. – Fayenatic London 08:35, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Instagram connect}}

:Nominator's rationale: Useless Category. Lakeside Out!-LakesideMiners^{Click Here To Talk To Me!} 13:28, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering 20:20, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Christian fraternities and sororities by country to :Category:Christian fraternities and sororities

:Nominator's rationale: upmerge, unneeded category layer, also taking in mind the very limited content of the parent category. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:06, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support.Rathfelder (talk) 20:37, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 20:22, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|World Day of Prayer}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete per WP:SMALLCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:56, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support will foreseeably only have one member. per nom. Inter&anthro (talk) 03:35, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support and delink redlinks in main article, which are there to encourage the unnecessary creation of articles on the annual events, or worse still articles on the subject matter of the annual event titles. This is an annual event, but we do not have annual articles, except a redirect from the first one. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:03, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

:* {{done}} delinked redlinks. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:05, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: {{Relisted}} at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 September 4#Category:Androni–Sidermec–Bottecchia. ℯxplicit 04:07, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Androni–Sidermec–Bottecchia}}

:Nominator's rationale: Category setup for the cyclists on an individual team. As far as I know, we don't have a structure for doing this for cyclists, and would create a lot of category clutter with cyclists moving from team to team on a frequent basis. Compare the :Category:Team Sky, which doesn't do this (no Chris Froome, for example). Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 06:51, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

• Keep but remove the individual cyclists from the category. Leave three articles in it (Androni–Sidermec–Bottecchia, List of Androni Giocattoli–Sidermec rosters, team manager Gianni Savio) with a potential for growth. 91.124.117.194 (talk) 12:37, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:SMALLCAT after purging per comment above. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:49, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering 20:20, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Final Solution to :Category:The Holocaust

:Nominator's rationale: upmerge per WP:SMALLCAT and I also can't see that this category is clearly distinct from its parent category. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:49, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

• Two out of three members are already in the target category; the other is Armenian quote. These three pages relate to the intentionality of the Holocaust. Consider merging to :Category:Planning the Holocaust. – Fayenatic London 07:56, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

:* That might be a possible alternative merge target. Though I'm not really keen about it, because that category is more about the operational planning. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:42, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support merge or alt merge as the topics are identical. Place Clichy (talk) 15:55, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 20:19, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Wildlife of Yunnan to :Category:Fauna of Yunnan

:Nominator's rationale: To be consistent with hundreds of other categories e.g. :Category:Fauna of Hainan. Example previous similar discussion Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_August_12#Category:Wildlife_of_Shetland (although in this case the target is a fauna category as that is what this category appears to be). DexDor ^(talk) 05:34, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support - per the Shetland case. Oculi (talk) 20:41, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 20:18, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Doughboys (Canadian band)}}

:Nominator's rationale: Eponymous category for a band without the volume of spinoff content needed to warrant one. As always, every band does not automatically get one of these just because it exists -- they're created only when they're needed navigationally, by virtue of the band having a lot of spinoff content that falls outside the standard categorization schemes (e.g. {{cl|The Beatles}}, where there's a lot of stuff besides just the band article and their albums.) But this band doesn't have that, so it doesn't need an eponymous category. Bearcat (talk) 03:10, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

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