Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 August 5

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Converts to Catholicism from Evangelicalism. ℯxplicit 00:39, 20 August 2018 (UTC) closure reverted. Unbeknownst to me, this was simultaneously listed at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 August 15#Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Evangelicalism, where the discussion is leading to a very different result. ℯxplicit 23:54, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Converts to Roman Catholicism from Evangelicalism to :Category:Converts to the Catholic Church from Evangelicalism

:Nominator's rationale: Per :Category:Catholic Church, ultimately per Catholic Church, as well as :Category:Evangelicalism - per Evangelicalism. Chicbyaccident (talk) 12:23, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

• Alt rename to :Category:Converts to Catholicism from Evangelicalism, to keep consistency with Evangelicalism and siblings. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:57, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support Alt Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:22, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: {{Relisted}} at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 August 20#Category:Catholicism. ℯxplicit 00:39, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Catholicism to :Category:Catholicity

:Nominator's rationale: Per main article, further supported by that actual Catholicism article redirects to Catholicity. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:52, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support - we need a term more inclusive than Catholicism, which redirects to Catholic Church, which has recently become synonymous with the Roman Catholic Church, on Wikipedia if not in fact. (It is Catholicism (term) which redirects to Catholicity.) Oculi (talk) 17:50, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose, they are completely different terms. While Catholicism is most commonly associated with the faith and practices of the Catholic Church led by the Pope in Rome, the traits of Catholicity, and thus the term Catholic, are also claimed and possessed by other denominations such as the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East. It also occurs in Lutheranism, Anglicanism, as well as Independent Catholicism and other Christian denominations. This text isn't invented by myself, I've merely copied it from the Catholicity article which I haven't personally edited. In my own words: Catholicism is a religious movement (with the Catholic Church as its best known formal organization), while Catholicity is a claim by multiple religious movements. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:32, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Have you looked at the contents? :Category:Catholicism includes many of the non-Roman catholic entities you have mentioned. We have {{cl|Catholic Church}} for the Roman part and another word is required to include the whole catholic church (small c). Oculi (talk) 22:10, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

::* I have not seen the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, Lutheranism or broad Anglicanism. Thee is just one particular part of Anglicanism that quite strongly identifies with Catholicism (not Catholicity). Marcocapelle (talk) 03:45, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

:::* Do you not notice :Category:Independent Catholic denominations? Do you not observe that the main article is Catholicity? Do you fail to see that :Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church, which would usually require the 2 categories {{cl|Catholicism}} and {{cl|Catholic Church}} to be merged? This category needs to be renamed. Oculi (talk) 08:35, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

::::: In addition to the comment of {{u|Oculi}}, please note :Category:Independent Catholicism, and :Category:Anglo-Catholicism. Everything is alright. Chicbyaccident (talk) 12:54, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

::::* I had noticed :Category:Independent Catholic denominations indeed. The reason I did not explicitly mentioned this category was that I suspected (perhaps wrongly) that it is entirely obvious that independent Catholic denominations belong to Catholicism, perhaps even more obvious than Anglo-Catholicism belongs to Catholicism. Regrettably there is no article about Catholicism, but that is not a reason to set Catholicism equal to the Catholic Church, nor is it a reason to set Catholicism equal to Catholicity. I can't see a reason for starting a new set :Category:Catholicity either, because it would contain most Christian churches and would hence largely overlap with :Category:Christian denominational families. 'Even' reformed churches sometimes claim catholicity, see e.g. [https://www.raadvankerken.nl/pagina/4682/hervormd_katholiek_belijden Reformed Catholic confessing] (in Dutch). Marcocapelle (talk) 19:52, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

• Procedural comment, we recently had another discussion about this category with no consensus as result. There was also some other occasion (though I forgot when) in which I argued that there is nothing wrong with a :Category:Catholicism because it is a completely natural sibling category of :Category:Protestantism, :Category:Eastern Orthodoxy etc. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:39, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 21:11, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Institutes of Roman Catholic religious brothers to :Category:Institutes of Catholic religious brothers

:Nominator's rationale: While at it, per further below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 21:57, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support, see full discussion almost at the bottom of this page. Marcocapelle (talk) 03:58, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Cardinals (Catholic Church). ℯxplicit 00:39, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic cardinals to :Category:Cardinals

:Nominator's rationale: Destination category a disambiguation category. While I guess one could argue that the cardinals of the Catholic Church don't hold WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the article name Cardinal, that would be harder to do with the destination category name. I fail to see that there is encyclopedical relevance to motivate a category with biographical articles on individual cardinal birds. Dismbiguation categories should exist restrictively. This one case where it should be given up and instead deal with biographical articles on cardinals of the Catholic Church. Also in consistency with :Category:Cardinals by century, :Category:Cardinals by country, and‎ :Category:Cardinals by nationality.‎ Chicbyaccident (talk) 21:44, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• Rename but to :Category:Catholic cardinals. The category was moved from Cardinals to the present name via cfd in 2007. The subcats should be renamed to match the parent, not vice versa. (I was not myself in favour of dropping 'Roman' from these category and article names as it increases ambiguity, but I concede that the deed is done.) Oculi (talk) 23:53, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

:: I'd support that as a secondary best option. Including subcategories (feel free to nominate?). Chicbyaccident (talk) 00:04, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

• Alternate Alternate Rename To :Category:Cardinals (Catholic Church) to match the main article, Cardinal (Catholic Church). Regardless of the final naming, we need some sort of modifier due to the former title of Cardinal (Church of England). RevelationDirect (talk) 03:24, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Not to mention :Category:Cardinals (birds). I would be perfectly content with :Category:Cardinals (Catholic Church). Oculi (talk) 09:19, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose The College of Cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church is not the unambiguous primary topic of "Cardinals". For good reason: ask an average American what are "cardinals" and he or she would likely respond something about St. Louis in the Summer and Arizona in Winter (and not talking about migratory birds, either). Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:37, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support alternative alternative rename per main article. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:36, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

:: I guess you are referring to :Category:Catholic cardinals then? Chicbyaccident (talk) 22:24, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

::* Apologies it was meant to be double alternative rename, per main article as mentioned. I have corrected it now (in bold italic). Marcocapelle (talk) 03:53, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

• Rename dropping Roman. "Catholic" needs to be retained somehow to distinguish it from other uses of cardinal, including cardinal numbers. A slight preference for :Category:Catholic cardinals, but :Category:Cardinals (Catholic Church) would also do. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:16, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 21:12, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:21st-century movements to :Category:21st-century social movements

:Nominator's rationale: Movement is a disambiguation page for e.g. Social movements and Art movements. Presumably this category is meant for social movements and should not be mixed with art movements. If renamed, the category should also be reparented, to :Category:History of social movements. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:03, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. ℯxplicit 00:39, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Church sex abuse cases in North America to :Category:Catholic Church sex abuse cases in North America

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Church sex abuse cases in the United Kingdom to :Category:Catholic Church sex abuse cases in the United Kingdom

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Church sex abuse scandal in New Zealand to :Category:Catholic Church sex abuse scandal in New Zealand

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Church sex abuse scandal in Australia to :Category:Catholic Church sex abuse scandal in Australia

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Church sex abuse cases in the United States to :Category:Catholic Church sex abuse cases in the United States

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Church sex abuse cases in Ireland to :Category:Catholic Church sex abuse cases in Ireland

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Church sex abuse cases in Europe to :Category:Catholic Church sex abuse cases in Europe

:Nominator's rationale: Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• I have taken the liberty to merge these nominations that were originally separate. {{ping|Chicbyaccident}} could you please merge the congregations, religious institutes and religious orders by century into three group nominations? Marcocapelle (talk) 10:43, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

:: Thanks. I think that makes sense. However, I'm uncertain whether merged proposal can be applied to the other ones. There might be percussions of individual proposals that I haven't thought about. That said, I won't protest if someone else insists on a merge, though. Chicbyaccident (talk) 22:04, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support this and all discussions below referring to 'Roman Catholic', see full discussion almost at the bottom of this page. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:04, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose as to UK, where the category might pick up Anglo-Catholics. Support/neutral for rest. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:18, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

:: :Category:Catholic Church in the United Kingdom (per main article Catholic Church in the United Kingdom) doesn't seem to support that assertion, does it? Chicbyaccident (talk) 14:25, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Just "Catholic" might have picked up Anglo-Catholics, but Catholic Church in the category title is unambiguous. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:57, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support per nom. --Grabado (talk) 06:50, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 21:12, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Hospitals affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church to :Category:Hospitals affiliated with the Catholic Church

:Nominator's rationale: Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 21:13, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Hospitals formerly affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church to :Category:Hospitals formerly affiliated with the Catholic Church

:Nominator's rationale: Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. ℯxplicit 00:39, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:People excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church to :Category:People excommunicated by the Catholic Church

:Nominator's rationale: Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose in this case, as it may pick up people excluded from other Catholic denominations. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:19, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support, note that Catholic Church in the category title is unambiguous and certainly does not include Anglo-Catholicism. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:52, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support per nom. --Grabado (talk) 06:50, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 21:13, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic church in Overseas France to :Category:Catholic Church in Overseas France

:Nominator's rationale: Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 21:14, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic church in fiction to :Category:Catholic Church in fiction

:Nominator's rationale: Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 21:14, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic church in the Northern Territory to :Category:Catholic Church in the Northern Territory

:Nominator's rationale: Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Territorial prelatures. ℯxplicit 00:39, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Territorial prelatures of the Roman Catholic Church to :Category:Territorial prelatures of the Catholic Church

:Nominator's rationale: Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

:: In fact, this one could even be renamed to :Category:Territorial prelatures per consistency with :Category:Military ordinariates (and its previous equivalent discussion). Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:36, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

::* Both options are fine. Since the article is at Territorial prelate without a disambiguator, I suppose a category name can also go without a disambiguator in this case. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:32, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support renaming to :Category:Territorial prelatures. --Grabado (talk) 06:50, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 21:14, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Church sex abuse scandal in Oceania to :Category:Catholic Church sex abuse scandal in Oceania

:Nominator's rationale: WP:C2D: Catholic Church; WP:C2C: :Category:Catholic Church. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:43, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Esperanto in Iran. ℯxplicit 00:39, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Esperanto movement in Iran}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete per WP:SMALLCAT. No need to merge, both organizations are already in :Category:Esperanto organizations. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:42, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• Delete for Now With no objection to recreating if it ever gets up to 5 or so articles.RevelationDirect (talk) 03:25, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:51, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
• Alt rename :Category:Esperanto in Iran, as there is a small :Category:Esperanto by country tree.
  We could also consider redefining that one to :Category:Esperanto by continent so we would rename and merge this one to :Category:Esperanto in Asia. --PanchoS (talk) 07:35, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

:* The by-country tree is so small that we may better upmerge that it in a fresh nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:09, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

• Rename to :Category:Esperanto in Iran. :Category:Esperanto by country is no longer small. Oculi (talk) 14:43, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
• Rename to :Category:Esperanto in Iran, per Oculi. --KuboF Hromoslav (talk) 21:15, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 21:15, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic nursing orders to :Category:Catholic nursing orders

:Nominator's rationale: Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:40, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering 21:15, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Presidents of IEA to :Category:Iranian Esperanto Association

:Nominator's rationale: upmerge per WP:SMALLCAT, currently only one article. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:33, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:51, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 21:16, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Former members of Roman Catholic religious institutes to :Category:Former members of Catholic religious institutes

:Nominator's rationale: Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:31, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 21:16, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic congregations established in the 16th century to :Category:Catholic congregations established in the 16th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic congregations established in the 17th century to :Category:Catholic congregations established in the 17th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic congregations established in the 18th century to :Category:Catholic congregations established in the 18th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic congregations established in the 19th century to :Category:Catholic congregations established in the 19th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic congregations established in the 20th century to :Category:Catholic congregations established in the 20th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic religious institutes established in the 17th century to :Category:Catholic religious institutes established in the 17th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic religious institutes established in the 18th century to :Category:Catholic religious institutes established in the 18th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic religious institutes established in the 19th century to :Category:Catholic religious institutes established in the 19th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic religious institutes established in the 20th century to :Category:Catholic religious institutes established in the 20th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic religious institutes established in the 21st-century to :Category:Catholic religious institutes established in the 21st-century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic religious orders established in the 11th century to :Category:Catholic religious orders established in the 11th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic religious orders established in the 13th century to :Category:Catholic religious orders established in the 13th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic religious orders established in the 14th century to :Category:Catholic religious orders established in the 14th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic religious orders established in the 16th century to :Category:Catholic religious orders established in the 16th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic religious orders established in the 19th century to :Category:Catholic religious orders established in the 19th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic religious orders established in the 20th century to :Category:Catholic religious orders established in the 20th century

:* Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic religious orders established in the 21st century to :Category:Catholic religious orders established in the 21st century

:Nominator's rationale: Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:31, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support All Centuries/Favor Combingng per nom and suggest combining them. RevelationDirect (talk) 03:28, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

:*Note {{ping|Chicbyaccident}} I was bold and combined them as a friendly edit. RevelationDirect (talk) 03:38, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

::: OK, thanks. Feel free should you believe any of the other nominations could be combined as well. Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:34, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

:::: If these all pass and you have more, you might look at doing some group nominations. Thanks for your cleanup efforts. RevelationDirect (talk) 03:42, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

::::: {{ping|RevelationDirect}} I'm a fraid a collaborational effort will still be needed. By the way, have you considered contributing to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Catholicism)? Chicbyaccident (talk) 17:10, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 21:17, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Founders of Roman Catholic religious communities to :Category:Founders of Catholic religious communities

:Nominator's rationale: Per consistency. Otherwise unexplainaed exception in otherwise thouroughly consistent category tree under :Category:Catholic orders and societies. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:28, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support this and all of the above referring to 'Roman Catholic'. First, for consistency, because the main article is at Catholic Church, not at Roman Catholic Church. Second, because Roman Catholic is ambiguous, it may refer to either the whole Catholic Church, or to the Latin Church only. Third, there is hardly ever a good reason to make an explicit distinction between the Latin Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches: they have everything in common except the liturgical rites and perhaps a little extra degree of local autonomy. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:54, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

::Excuse, it is a bit clear which "and all of the above" you are referring to. Would you mind making the effort to specifically indicate support above individually, please? Chicbyaccident (talk) 22:25, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: {{Relisted}} at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 August 20#Category:Esperanto workers movement. ℯxplicit 00:39, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Esperanto workers movement}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete, as it is entirely unclear what Esperanto workers movement means. No need to merge, because 4 articles are already in :Category:German Esperantists and the other 2 articles already in :Category:Esperanto organizations. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:24, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• Delete for Now Without a main article Esperanto workers movement, I have no idea what the inclusion criteria would be. Willing to revisit if/when that article appears. RevelationDirect (talk) 03:27, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
• Propose retaining — I have now translated a main article for this category from the equivalent Esperanto-language page, Laborista Esperanto-movado, hoping to satisfy the criterion of RevelationDirect, above. The Esperanto workers movement can be seen as a Venn diagram in the intersection of the Esperanto movement and of the international labour movement
  — Objectivesea (talk) 06:32, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

:* While I agree that the original rationale no longer applies there are still two issues left. The four biographies should still be purged. And after purging the category becomes so small that the new article may better be moved to :Category:Esperanto movement and the category may be deleted after all. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:27, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

• Keep but Purge The category now has four legitimate articles that match the new main article: Esperanto workers movement, Arbeidernes Esperantoforbund, Rudi Graetz, Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda and the recent addition has shown room for growth. (Marcocapelle is correct though: the other biography articles don't belong here--or at least the current articles on English Wikipedia don't have enough information to show that they belong.) RevelationDirect (talk) 04:04, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.