Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 February 9

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= February 9 =

== Category:Factions of the Democratic Party (United States) ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: keep, but purge.
There was no discussion of {{ping|Marcocapelle|p=}}'s proposal to rename from "of" to "in". Feel free to open a new discussion on that idea. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:17, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

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:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Factions of the Democratic Party (United States)}}

:Nominator's rationale: While I can understand why this was created, we already have Factions in the Democratic Party (United States) which does not seem to relate to this category. I'm also unclear about the criteria. Perhaps a rename with clearer criteria? Why is the DNC in this category? Or Democratic and liberal support for John McCain in 2008? Doug Weller talk 19:22, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

keep articles and categories serve completely different purposes. The fact that there is an article is no reason at all to delete a category. So no deletion rationale has been provided by the nominator. And there is no valid reason to delete the category. Hmains (talk) 06:22, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Keep (i.e. don't delete), inclusion criterion is clear and defining (see also Political faction), but some articles do not belong in this category, like Democratic National Committee, College Democrats of America and Democrats Abroad, these should be moved to :Category:Democratic Party (United States) organizations‎. I guess this is the reason why the category got nominated. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:01, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

: In addition, rename to :Category:Factions in the Democratic Party (United States) per WP:C2D. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:15, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Years in Japan (1000-1800) ==

:The result of the discussion was: merge before the year 1500. Keep thereafter.. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:22, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

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:* Propose merging :Category:1014 establishments in Japan to :Category:1014 establishments in Asia and :Category:1010s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1019 in Japan to :Category:1019 in Asia and :Category:1010s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1051 in Japan to :Category:1051 in Asia and :Category:1050s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1053 in Japan to :Category:1053 in Asia and :Category:1050s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1057 in Japan to :Category:1057 in Asia and :Category:1050s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1062 establishments in Japan to :Category:1062 establishments in Asia and :Category:1060s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1062 in Japan to :Category:1062 in Asia and :Category:1060s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1063 in Japan to :Category:1063 in Asia and :Category:1060s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1087 in Japan to :Category:1087 in Asia and :Category:1080s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1129 in Japan to :Category:1129 in Asia and :Category:1120s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1156 in Japan to :Category:1156 in Asia and :Category:1150s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1160 in Japan to :Category:1160 in Asia and :Category:1160s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1161 in Japan to :Category:1161 in Asia and :Category:1160s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1165 in Japan to :Category:1165 in Asia and :Category:1160s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1177 in Japan to :Category:1177 in Asia and :Category:1170s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1180 in Japan to :Category:1180 in Asia and :Category:1180s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1181 in Japan to :Category:1181 in Asia and :Category:1180s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1183 in Japan to :Category:1183 in Asia and :Category:1180s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1185 disestablishments in Japan to :Category:1185 disestablishments in Asia and :Category:1180s disestablishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1185 in Japan to :Category:1185 in Asia and :Category:1180s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1189 in Japan to :Category:1189 in Asia and :Category:1180s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1195 establishments in Japan to :Category:1195 establishments in Asia and :Category:1190s establishments in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1272 establishments in Japan to :Category:1272 establishments in Asia and :Category:1270s establishments in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1274 in Japan to :Category:1274 in Asia and :Category:1270s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1281 in Japan to :Category:1281 in Asia and :Category:1280s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1285 establishments in Japan to :Category:1285 establishments in Asia and :Category:1280s establishments in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1293 in Japan to :Category:1293 in Asia and :Category:1290s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1338 disestablishments in Japan to :Category:1338 disestablishments in Asia and :Category:1330s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1338 in Japan to :Category:1338 in Asia and :Category:1330s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1348 in Japan to :Category:1348 in Asia and :Category:1340s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1359 in Japan to :Category:1359 in Asia and :Category:1350s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1371 establishments in Japan to :Category:1371 establishments in Asia and :Category:1370s establishments in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1380 in Japan to :Category:1380 in Asia and :Category:1380s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1392 disestablishments in Japan to :Category:1392 disestablishments in Asia and :Category:1390s disestablishments in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1467 establishments in Japan to :Category:1467 establishments in Asia and :Category:1460s establishments in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1511 in Japan to :Category:1511 in Asia and :Category:1510s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1524 in Japan to :Category:1524 in Asia and :Category:1520s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1530 in Japan to :Category:1530 in Asia and :Category:1530s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1542 in Japan to :Category:1542 in Asia and :Category:1540s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1550 in Japan to :Category:1550 in Asia and :Category:1550s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1551 in Japan to :Category:1551 in Asia and :Category:1550s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1553 in Japan to :Category:1553 in Asia and :Category:1550s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1555 establishments in Japan to :Category:1555 establishments in Asia and :Category:1550s establishments in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1558 in Japan to :Category:1558 in Asia and :Category:1550s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1560 in Japan to :Category:1560 in Asia and :Category:1560s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1561 in Japan to :Category:1561 in Asia and :Category:1560s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1562 in Japan to :Category:1562 in Asia and :Category:1560s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1563 in Japan to :Category:1563 in Asia and :Category:1560s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1564 in Japan to :Category:1564 in Asia and :Category:1560s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1565 in Japan to :Category:1565 in Asia and :Category:1560s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1566 in Japan to :Category:1566 in Asia and :Category:1560s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1567 in Japan to :Category:1567 in Asia and :Category:1560s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1568 in Japan to :Category:1568 in Asia and :Category:1560s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1569 in Japan to :Category:1569 in Asia and :Category:1560s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1570 in Japan to :Category:1570 in Asia and :Category:1570s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1571 in Japan to :Category:1571 in Asia and :Category:1570s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1572 in Japan to :Category:1572 in Asia and :Category:1570s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1573 disestablishments in Japan to :Category:1573 disestablishments in Asia and :Category:1570s disestablishments in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1576 in Japan to :Category:1576 in Asia and :Category:1570s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1577 in Japan to :Category:1577 in Asia and :Category:1570s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1582 in Japan to :Category:1582 in Asia and :Category:1580s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1587 in Japan to :Category:1587 in Asia and :Category:1580s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1589 in Japan to :Category:1589 in Asia and :Category:1580s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1599 establishments in Japan to :Category:1599 establishments in Asia and :Category:1590s establishments in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1600 establishments in Japan to :Category:1600 establishments in Asia and :Category:1600s establishments in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1603 disestablishments in Japan to :Category:1603 disestablishments in Asia and :Category:1600s disestablishments in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1611 in Japan to :Category:1611 in Asia and :Category:1610s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1612 in Japan to :Category:1612 in Asia and :Category:1610s in Japan

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:* Propose merging :Category:1665 establishments in Japan to :Category:1665 establishments in Asia and :Category:1660s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1666 establishments in Japan to :Category:1666 establishments in Asia and :Category:1660s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1669 in Japan to :Category:1669 in Asia and :Category:1660s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1670 in Japan to :Category:1670 in Asia and :Category:1670s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1671 in Japan to :Category:1671 in Asia and :Category:1670s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1672 in Japan to :Category:1672 in Asia and :Category:1670s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1673 establishments in Japan to :Category:1673 establishments in Asia and :Category:1670s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1675 in Japan to :Category:1675 in Asia and :Category:1670s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1677 establishments in Japan to :Category:1677 establishments in Asia and :Category:1670s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1683 in Japan to :Category:1683 in Asia and :Category:1680s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1684 establishments in Japan to :Category:1684 establishments in Asia and :Category:1680s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1685 in Japan to :Category:1685 in Asia and :Category:1680s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1686 in Japan to :Category:1686 in Asia and :Category:1680s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1687 in Japan to :Category:1687 in Asia and :Category:1680s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1689 establishments in Japan to :Category:1689 establishments in Asia and :Category:1680s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1697 establishments in Japan to :Category:1697 establishments in Asia and :Category:1690s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1700 in Japan to :Category:1700 in Asia and :Category:1700s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1701 in Japan to :Category:1701 in Asia and :Category:1700s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1702 in Japan to :Category:1702 in Asia and :Category:1700s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1703 in Japan to :Category:1703 in Asia and :Category:1700s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1705 establishments in Japan to :Category:1705 establishments in Asia and :Category:1700s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1707 in Japan to :Category:1707 in Asia and :Category:1700s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1710 establishments in Japan to :Category:1710 establishments in Asia and :Category:1710s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1710 in Japan to :Category:1710 in Asia and :Category:1710s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1712 in Japan to :Category:1712 in Asia and :Category:1710s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1714 in Japan to :Category:1714 in Asia and :Category:1710s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1721 in Japan to :Category:1721 in Asia and :Category:1720s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1722 establishments in Japan to :Category:1722 establishments in Asia and :Category:1720s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1724 disestablishments in Japan to :Category:1724 disestablishments in Asia and :Category:1720s disestablishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1725 in Japan to :Category:1725 in Asia and :Category:1720s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1732 in Japan to :Category:1732 in Asia and :Category:1730s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1733 in Japan to :Category:1733 in Asia and :Category:1730s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1737 in Japan to :Category:1737 in Asia and :Category:1730s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1740 in Japan to :Category:1740 in Asia and :Category:1740s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1744 establishments in Japan to :Category:1744 establishments in Asia and :Category:1740s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1748 establishments in Japan to :Category:1748 establishments in Asia and :Category:1740s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1754 in Japan to :Category:1754 in Asia and :Category:1750s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1756 establishments in Japan to :Category:1756 establishments in Asia and :Category:1750s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1758 establishments in Japan to :Category:1758 establishments in Asia and :Category:1750s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1764 establishments in Japan to :Category:1764 establishments in Asia and :Category:1760s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1771 in Japan to :Category:1771 in Asia and :Category:1770s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1781 establishments in Japan to :Category:1781 establishments in Asia and :Category:1780s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1782 in Japan to :Category:1782 in Asia and :Category:1780s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1783 in Japan to :Category:1783 in Asia and :Category:1780s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1784 establishments in Japan to :Category:1784 establishments in Asia and :Category:1780s establishments in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1784 in Japan to :Category:1784 in Asia and :Category:1780s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1785 in Japan to :Category:1785 in Asia and :Category:1780s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1786 in Japan to :Category:1786 in Asia and :Category:1780s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1787 in Japan to :Category:1787 in Asia and :Category:1780s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1788 in Japan to :Category:1788 in Asia and :Category:1780s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1789 in Japan to :Category:1789 in Asia and :Category:1780s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1790 in Japan to :Category:1790 in Asia and :Category:1790s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1792 in Japan to :Category:1792 in Asia and :Category:1790s in Japan

:* Propose merging :Category:1798 establishments in Japan to :Category:1798 establishments in Asia and :Category:1790s establishments in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1014 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1141 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1190 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1195 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1200 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1202 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1218 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1226 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1236 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1244 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1253 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1269 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1272 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1273 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1275 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1282 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1283 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1285 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1290 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1313 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1371 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1373 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1392 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1474 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1540 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1594 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1601 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1602 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1604 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1606 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1608 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1617 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1619 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1621 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1622 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1623 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1627 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1629 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1630 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1632 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1634 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1639 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1645 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1646 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1647 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1648 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1652 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1654 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1656 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1659 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1661 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1662 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1663 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1664 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1665 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1666 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1673 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1677 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1684 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1689 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1697 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1705 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1722 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1724 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1744 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1748 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1756 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1758 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1764 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1781 in Japan

:* Propose deleting :Category:1798 in Japan

:Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT to decades. The large amount of year categories contain only one article, but there is sufficient content to keep decade categories. Only by the end of 16th century there is a sudden increase in the amount of articles, but not to the extent that merging would make the decade categories excessively large. In the 17th and 18th century the amount of articles drops back to the 'normal' level. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:54, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Support before 1500. While still on the thin side, the 1540s have almost enough content to keep. The target would end off with at least 30 articles. Later periods need to be considered more fully, hence oppose any action after 1500. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:03, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
Support before 1500 per {{Ping|Peterkingiron}}. We should confine "by year" categories to the Modern Period (i.e. after 1500). Having said that, the definition of "Modern" is quite Euro-centric, so perhaps more latitude ought to be given to Asian categories where it can be demonstrated that sufficient bulk exists. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:13, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Comment - Japan refers to the modern State of Japan, which came into existence in 1947. Prior to that there was no State of Japan in modern meaning.GreyShark (dibra) 13:24, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

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== Category:Colemak users ==

:The result of the discussion was: speedy delete per WP:G7. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:58, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

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:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Colemak users}}

:Nominator's rationale: WP:OC/U - narrow. —swpb^{T go beyond} 15:43, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

:Delete per nom and as creator of the category - I didn't read the rules! Clearly I'm in the wrong {{wink}} -NottNott|talk 16:36, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

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== Category:Twin musicians ==

:The result of the discussion was: no consensus, but there are some pointers here to suggest future nominations for specific parts of this hierarchy. When nominating them, please ensure that all affected sub-categories are also nominated. – Fayenatic London 17:51, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Twin musicians}}

::Also including {{cl|twin performers}}, {{cl|twin actresses}}, {{cl|fraternal twin actresses}}, {{cl|fraternal twin male actors}}, {{cl|twin male actors}}, {{cl|fraternal twin actors}}, {{cl|twin models}}, {{cl|twin sportspeople}}, {{cl|twin sportspeople from England}}

:Nominator's rationale: Categorization by non-notable intersection. TM 01:25, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Delete all per nom. —swpb^{T go beyond} 15:28, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Oppose as nominated. I have not formed a view on the triviality or otherwise of the intersections, but if these categories are to be removed, then some upmerger is needed.

:e.g. :Category:Twin musicians is a subcat of :Category:Twin performers and :Category:Sibling musical duos. Deletion would remove articles from :Category:Twin people and :Category:Sibling musical duos.

:Similarly, :Category:Twin sportspeople from England should be merged to :Category:Twin people from England; and :Category:Fraternal twin actors should be merged to :Category:Fraternal twins. I have not examined the other nominated categories, but they should all be checked.

:@TM, do you want to amend the nomination? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:55, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

::I don't oppose upmerging where appropriate.--TM 21:47, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Oppose proposed scheme per BHG. Grutness...wha? 21:28, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Keep but prune some of them. Eg in :Category:Twin musicians (subcat of :Category:Musical duos), Samanda is a musical duo of twins - twins is surely defining (and is mentioned prominently). In contrast Bill Kaulitz happens to have a twin. In short there is a viable category which should be restricted to articles on Musical duos comprising twins. The others look to me to be dubious, unless the twins are performing together as a duo. But then Camilla and Carey More don't have individual articles and do seem to have generally been together. :Category:Twin sportspeople looks as if it should be upmerged (per BHG above). Oculi (talk) 23:16, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
I like {{ping|Oculi|p=}}'s logic here: restrict the occupational categories to cases where being twins is actually WP:DEFINING because the twins perform together, as with Samanda and Jedward. For such musicians, would :Category:Musical duos of twins be a suitable new title?
Are their notable duets of twins in other types of entertainment? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:32, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Keep some but prune down to :Category:Twin musical duos, with the criterion that they regularly perform together. Sportspeople would only merit keeping if the twins regularly play as a duo, for example as tennis doubles partners. The fact that a person has a twin is trivial. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:08, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
Comment - so what happens if there are a pair of twins performing as part of a four- or five-piece band, like Kelley and Kim Deal? Not a twin musical duo, but worth keeping in the category, surely... The other option would be to listify, which might solve some problems. Grutness...wha? 00:34, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm as big a fan of the Pixies as they come, and even I wouldn't consider twinness to be defining of Kim and Kelley Deal per se. Bearcat (talk) 02:29, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Delete, without prejudice against recreation of a new category for the relatively few people who are notable specifically as twins. Happening to be a twin is not defining of the person's notability in most instances — it's only relevant in specialized cases, such as Tegan and Sara, where the twins performed together as a duo. Bearcat (talk) 02:31, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Procedural comment, both deletion and pruning seem to conflict with User:BrownHairedGirl's initial comment about merging. Probably if these categories are to be deleted or pruned, then the entire tree of :Category:Twin people ought to be deleted or pruned, but not the entire tree has been nominated. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:35, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

::Can this be closed or relisted?--TM 11:17, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Oppose Twin Sportspeople - I cant speak for the others, but athletes being twins is frequently cited in the news, often as the basis of articles. As an example, with the Lopez twins in basketball, here are five examples [https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/06/sports/basketball/brook-and-robin-lopez-with-identical-genes-are-often-a-study-in-contrasts.html 1], [http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-spt-bulls-lopez-twins-robin-brook-20171120-story.html 2], [http://articles.latimes.com/2006/apr/25/local/me-tall25 3], [https://nypost.com/2015/11/28/nba-twins-brook-and-robin-lopez-cant-live-together-because-their-cats-hate-each-other/ 4], [https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2008/03/31/lopez-twins-are-leaving-stanford-for-careers-in-the-nba- 5]. I could do the same for the Barber twins in football - [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/25/sports/football/25barber.html 1], [https://www.newsday.com/sports/media/tiki-barber-excited-to-call-giants-buccaneers-in-booth-with-twin-brother-ronde-1.14290347 2], [https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2009/10/tiki-ronde-barber-excerpt-200910 3]. Same would be true of the Paris twins, or the current Martin twins in college basketball or any number of sports twins. It is definitely defining. Rikster2 (talk) 00:52, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

::Those are an extreme minority of cases. Sabrina Ionescu also has a twin and it is almost never mentioned. Moreover, simply being a twin is not "the reason(s) for the person's notability;" in the vast majority of cases. For example, Tiki Barber is notable for being a professional athlete, not for being a twin.--TM 11:17, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

:::It's not the extreme minority. It is the vast majority when both twins play the sport. Paris twins, Burge twins, Wear twins, the Collins twins, etc. - their status as a twin dominates press coverage of tehm. And this is true of Barber too. It is defining for these individuals. Yes, Tiki Barber is known for being a football player. He is also widely known as a football player whose twin brother also played the sport - they've written a whole series of children's books about it post-playing career. Rikster2 (talk) 12:26, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

::::If Tiki Barber did not have a twin, he would still be notable. However, if he had never played professional football, he probably would not be notable. Per Wikipedia guidelines, he and all of the others should be categorized for what makes him notable, not by every attribute of his biography.--TM 12:44, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

:::::There is nothing in WP:Categorization that indicates there is only one thing notable about a person. If this were the case we wouldn’t have “people from City foo” categories or most college alumni categories. In his case, It is DEFINING that Barber is a twin sportsperson, as evidenced by sources. Rikster2 (talk) 12:52, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

::::::There is actually quite a bit in Wikipedia's guidelines on that very topic. Re-read WP:COP#N. It states that "biographical articles should be categorized by defining characteristics. As a rule of thumb for main biographies this includes: standard biographical details: year of birth, year of death and nationality [and] the reason(s) for the person's notability". Some twins are notable for being twins, but the vast majority of people with a twin are notable for something else. It is trivial that they have a twin. Sources regularly talk about a person's siblings and parents, but we do not categorize by that, even when reliable sources state it. Would {{cl|Sportspeople with three brothers}} be considered acceptable?--TM 13:20, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

:::::::I know, I read all that. What this comes down to is your narrow view of the guideline vs. my view. It is not trivial that a sportsperson has a twin if it consistently is a major point in objective, reliable sources, as it is in all the cases I have highlighted. I.E. it is “defining” it is noted for more athletes than not and pretty much all of them if their twin plays the sport as well. I understand your point. I understand the guideline. I just disagree with you. Rikster2 (talk) 13:52, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Keep where both notable Where twins are both successful within a given field, it becomes an integral part of how they are defined. Coverage frequently discusses the quality of twinhood ([https://www.si.com/vault/2000/03/20/276820/some-quick-barbering-twin-sprinters-miki-and-lisa-barber-of-south-carolina-buzzed-the-ncaas example]). I would prune cases where only one of the twins is notable, thus in :Category:Twin actors we should have Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen but not Ashton Kutcher. Coverage reflects this distinction: you will struggle to find coverage of Ashley Olsen that fails to mention her twin, yet I only found out that Ashton Kutcher has a twin today, purely for the sake of this conversation {{(:}} SFB 00:12, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
Comment At the very least if the conversation does go towards delete then the contents should be to listify – we definitely have sufficient third party coverage to do that. SFB 00:24, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Sort-of related question To be included in :Category:Twin people, do both twins have to be notable? – Muboshgu (talk) 04:43, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

::Not currently.--TM 13:10, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

:Will someone relist or close this debate? It seems as though there is a consensus to delete at least some of these categories and prune others.--TM 12:25, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Delete being a twin is not defining enough to categorize by.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:07, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

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