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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 June 10

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= June 10 =

== Category:High school students who committed suicide ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Not moved. Timrollpickering 17:23, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:High school students who committed suicide to :Category:High school students who completed suicide :Category:High school students who died by suicide

:Edit 18:35, 13 June 2018 (UTC): per discussion, see below for the inclusion of additional categories that would be affected by the proposed change ("committed" to "died by"), with preserved placement in the :Category:Suicides by occupation tree:

{{hidden|Edits to :Category:Suicides by occupation tree|

:*:Category:Academics who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Historians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Scientists who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Doctors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Mathematicians who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Physicists who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Social scientists who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Painters who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Photographers who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Sculptors who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Writers who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Dramatists and playwrights who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Journalists who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Literary critics who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Poets who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Murderers who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Murderers who committed suicide in prison custody‎

::::*:Category:Serial killers who committed suicide in prison custody‎

:::*:Category:Serial killers who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Nazi collaborators who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Motorsport competitors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Racing drivers who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:American actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Argentine actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Australian actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Austrian actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Azerbaijani actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Bangladeshi actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Brazilian actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:British actresses who committed suicide‎

:::::*:Category:English actresses who committed suicide‎

:::::*:Category:Scottish actresses who committed suicide‎

:::::*:Category:Welsh actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Canadian actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Chinese actresses who committed suicide‎

:::::*:Category:Hong Kong actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Czech actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Egyptian actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Filipino actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:French actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:German actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Greek actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Indian actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Italian actresses who committed suicide

::::*:Category:Japanese actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Korean actresses who committed suicide‎

:::::*:Category:South Korean actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Mauritian actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Mexican actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Polish actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Russian actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:South Korean actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Swedish actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Swiss actresses who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Taiwanese actresses who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Albanian male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:American male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Argentine male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Australian male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Austrian male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Azerbaijani male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Bangladeshi male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Belgian male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Bosnia and Herzegovina male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Brazilian male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:British male actors who committed suicide‎

:::::*:Category:English male actors who committed suicide‎

:::::*:Category:Male actors from Northern Ireland who committed suicide‎

:::::*:Category:Scottish male actors who committed suicide‎

:::::*:Category:Welsh male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Canadian male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Chinese male actors who committed suicide‎

:::::*:Category:Hong Kong male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Czech male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Danish male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Dutch male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Estonian male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Filipino male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Finnish male actors who committed suicide

::::*:Category:French male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:German male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Hungarian male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Indian male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Israeli male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Italian male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Japanese male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Lithuanian male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Mexican male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Moroccan male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:New Zealand male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Portuguese male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Russian male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Serbian male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Slovak male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:South Korean male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Spanish male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Swedish male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Swiss male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Taiwanese male actors who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Yugoslav male actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Albanian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:American actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Argentine actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Australian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Austrian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Azerbaijani actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Bangladeshi actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Belgian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Bosnia and Herzegovina actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Brazilian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:British actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Canadian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Chinese actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Czech actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Danish actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Dutch actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Egyptian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Estonian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Filipino actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Finnish actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:French actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:German actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Greek actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Hungarian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Indian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Irish actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Israeli actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Italian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Japanese actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Lithuanian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Mauritian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Mexican actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Moroccan actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:New Zealand actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Polish actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Pornographic film actors who committed suicide

:::*:Category:Portuguese actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Russian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Serbian actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Slovak actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:South Korean actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Spanish actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Swedish actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Swiss actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Taiwanese actors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Yugoslav actors who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Circus performers who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Clowns who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Comedians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Dancers who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Film directors who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Magicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Musicians who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Classical musicians who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Composers who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Conductors (music) who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Jazz musicians who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Singers who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:American musicians who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:British musicians who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:South Korean musicians who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Swedish musicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Producers who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Television personalities who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide by location‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Austria‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Belgium‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Brazil‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Czechoslovakia‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in France‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Germany‎

::::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Berlin‎

::::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Flensburg‎

::::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Lüneburg

::::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Nuremberg‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Hungary‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Lithuania‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in the Netherlands‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Norway‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Poland‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Romania‎

::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide by method‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Germany by method‎

::::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide by cyanide poisoning in Germany‎

::::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide by firearm in Germany‎

::::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide by hanging in Germany‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide by cyanide poisoning‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide by explosive device‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide by firearm‎

:::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide by hanging‎

::*:Category:Nazis who committed suicide in prison custody‎

::*:Category:Austrian Nazis who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Albanian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:American politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Ancient Roman politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Argentine politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Australian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Belarusian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Belgian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Brazilian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:British politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Canadian politicians who committed suicide

::*:Category:Chilean politicians who committed suicide

::*:Category:Chinese politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Cuban politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Czechoslovak politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Estonian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Finnish politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:French politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Politicians from Georgia (country) who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:German politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Greek politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Haitian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Hungarian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Iranian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Irish politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Israeli politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Italian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Japanese politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Mexican politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:New Zealand politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Norwegian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Polish politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Romanian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Serbian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Slovenian politicians who committed suicide

::*:Category:South Korean politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Soviet politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Spanish politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Syrian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Ukrainian politicians who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Chinese royalty who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Royal suicides in the classical world‎ (no change)

:::*:Category:Roman emperors who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:Sports competitors who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Competitors in athletics who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Australian rules footballers who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Baseball players who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Basketball players who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Chess players who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Cricketers who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Cyclists who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Players of American football who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Association football players who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Go players who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Golfers who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Gymnasts who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Ice hockey players who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Martial artists who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Boxers who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Judoka who committed suicide‎

::::*:Category:Wrestlers who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Rugby league players who committed suicide‎

:::*:Category:Tennis players who committed suicide‎

::*:Category:College students who committed suicide‎

}}

:Edit 14:17, 14 June 2018 (UTC): requesting assistance for tagging pages! I've left a message on the project's talk page here.

:Nominator's rationale: Hi there! I am recommending that this category be renamed from the current "committed suicide" language to the suggested "completed suicide" language. The term "committed" infers a negative connotation, whereas the term "completed" (or other alternatives, such as "died by") is a more factual, connotation-less means of expressing the cause of death. While "committed suicide" may still be a popular vernacular term, I do not believe that it is encyclopedic to use this negative language when more neutral language will suffice. In addition, the term "completed" is preferred by the National Institute of Mental Health and the Beck Classification of Suicidal Behaviour, as you can read about here. I would appreciate your thoughts on this suggestion! ―Biochemistry🙴❤ 23:34, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

  • inclined to oppose With all due respect to the institute, this is essentially an attempt to substitute a euphemism for the commonly used language. In the name of neutrality, it is not for us to be taking sides in the morality of killing oneself. I'm rather doubtful that the claim they make is even true, but be that as it may, they aren't the only authority here. Mangoe (talk) 12:49, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Thank you for coming to discuss! If your concern is about taking sides on a moral issue, I share that exact concern—I would note that, however, by leaving the current language of "committed," we arguably are taking sides on the morality of killing oneself, and that's the problem. The suggested "completed" (or alternative "died by") language does not take a moral stance, and is a nonmoral, factual statement of the cause of death. On the matter of being an authority, the NIMH is stated as "the largest research organization in the world specializing in mental illness" in the suicide terminology article (and in the lead section of its own article), which I would think represents a useful guideline for our project.―Biochemistry🙴❤ 14:46, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Also inclined to oppose - even in the :Suicide terminology article the expression "to complete suicide" is described as one supported by advocacy groups, not as the standard Eng lang expression. I suppose an alternative which avoids the overtone of suicide as crime might be :Category:High school students who killed themselves, although that wd imply renaming the whole Suicide tree. Eustachiusz (talk) 18:38, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your comment and suggestion! As I concede in my rationale that the term "committed" is a popular vernacular term, I would note that the expression "to complete suicide" is both one that is supported by advocacy groups (as you mentioned), but also by experts. Just because most people call it a "heart attack" doesn't mean we should avoid using the technical term "myocardial infarction" for the page; by extension, I believe we should follow the larger consensus of experts on this terminology, as evidenced by the NIMH's position. I agree that "kill themselves" would be an acceptable, alternate terminology as well due to its neutrality (if you wish to avoid the term "completed"), though I would prefer the term, "died by suicide" to employ the word "suicide" itself. On your last point, I'm not familiar with the "suicide tree" you mentioned; can you please link it here? Is this it? On the List of suicides page, the terminology "died from suicide" is used in the lead section.―Biochemistry🙴❤ 18:57, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • ::Sorry - I should have been clearer about the "Suicide tree": I meant all the sub-categories (and their sub-categories) under the top category :Category:Suicide. The reason why I'm hesitant about the expression "to complete suicide" is that unlike myocardial infarction it doesn't seem (yet) to be completely accepted as THE standard technical expression in the field so this is perhaps a case of :WP:TOOSOON. I'd be happy to support :Category:High school students who died by suicide (and all the other groups of people in the present "committed suicide" cats, which would also need to be changed for consistency) - as you say, that retains the word "suicide". Eustachiusz (talk) 01:38, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
  • :::No worries—thank you for the link! I would be comfortable with the "died by" terminology too, as well as applying it uniformly to :Category:Suicide.―Biochemistry🙴❤ 03:19, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Not supporting this, but "died by" would be ok - per discussions above. Johnbod (talk) 14:59, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose "committed suicide" is the normal parlance and is the title of nearly all the sister categories at :Category:Suicides by occupation; is there a reliable source for "completed suicide" being in greater use than "committed suicide"? If not, it may be a MOS:NEO? Per Wikipedia:Category_names standard naming conventions apply, and per WP:CRITERIA, there really is nothing wrong with "committed suicide" as used for people who killed themselves. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:51, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your response! Per your request for a reliable source, I would refer you to the NIMH, whom exclusively uses the language "completed" instead of "committed." Per [https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-faq/index.shtml their FAQ], "It’s best to avoid the use of terms like 'committing suicide' or a 'successful suicide' when referring to a death by suicide as these terms often carry negative connotations." The term "died by suicide" is used [https://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/directors/thomas-insel/blog/2010/the-under-recognized-public-health-crisis-of-suicide.shtml here], and their official reporting guidelines (cited in Suicide terminology) are to use the term "completed suicide." The point is not about what the hoi polloi generally use, but what the experts use (see my analogy of "heart attack" and "myocardial infarction" above).―Biochemistry🙴❤ 04:23, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose "committed suicide" is the common English term. NIMH may be using "completed" to enable them to bring it together with "attempted". I would not oppose moving to "died by suicide", though I am very dubious in how many cases the subject will be notable. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:46, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the response! While "committed suicide" is the term used by the common person, it is not the term that is used by the common expert. By your rationale, we should list myocardial infarction as heart attack, because that's the term used by the common person. I'm glad that you would at least support the latter terminology; I have amended the proposal to represent the support for "died by" in place of "committed." ―Biochemistry🙴❤ 18:38, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Procedural comment, {{ping|Biochemistry&Love}} none of the nominated categories has been tagged, which implies that there hasn't been any alerting. You should do that or otherwise, most likely, a closing admin will close the discussion as "keep" on procedural grounds. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:46, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the helpful information. I'll tag a few of them now, but I'm hoping for help in that task (given the large number of pages); I left a message on the project talk page to request assistance for that task. ―Biochemistry🙴❤ 14:01, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose renaming category tree as suggested. As a transitive verb, it is not necessary that a committed act must correlate with a crime. Webster gives the first meaning of commit as: "to carry into action deliberately" and gives the intransitive verb: "to perpetrate an offense" as obsolete.[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commit] The Thesaurus gives complete as a synonym of commit which begs to know why it would otherwise be acceptable where commit is averred not to be.[http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/commit] This question has been asked before; failing to gain consensus. While consensus can change, I don't see a compelling reason to support such a change at this time.--John Cline (talk) 07:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Vehemently support I agree that committed infers a negative connotation, as discussed above: "The term "committed" infers a negative connotation, whereas the term "completed" (or other alternatives, such as "died by") is a more factual, connotation-less means of expressing the cause of death." Waddie96 (talk) 15:33, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

----

:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Engravers from the Republic of Geneva ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Close and recommend a new broader nomination. This discussion is complicated by user conduct issues and other categories have been created. It's best to start from scratch on this. Timrollpickering 00:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Engravers from the Republic of Geneva to :Category:Swiss engravers

:Nominator's rationale: New cat, 4 entries. The Republic of Geneva did apparently claim to be independent for short periods before Napoleon, but we have never accepted it as a nationality. The editor who created the category has been edit-warring to keep it in :Category:Engravers by nationality, and out of :Category:Swiss engravers. Not needed, and certainly not as a new nationality. Johnbod (talk) 22:05, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

:Ok, there are tons more. He's either a complete idiot, or cunning, & hasn't set up a holding "People from the Republic of Geneva", but from [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sapphorain his contributions] one can see:

-All in a "by nationality" cat, and not in the "Swiss" one. All need treating the same way, but I haven't tagged them. Johnbod (talk) 22:15, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

:: * Oppose to merging User:Johnbod doesn’t appear to be aware of the very long existence of the Republic of Geneva (1541-1815). Genevan from this period with a page on Wikipedia are very numerous, were not Swiss, and should not be referred as Swiss. It is for instance quite absurd to qualify Marie Huber or John Calvin or Francis Turretin of « Swiss theologians ». I would not object, however, to moving these to a category including former countries, like for instance :Category:Scientists from the Republic of Geneva is a subcategory of :Category:Scientists of former countries. Sapphorain (talk) 22:35, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Support per WP:OCLOCATION. However, please be kind enough to avoid personal attacks and assume good faith for the sake of the discussion! Place Clichy (talk) 01:45, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Creator may have a point though. According to Brittannica [https://www.britannica.com/place/Geneva-Switzerland] the admission of Geneva to Switzerland was vetoed by the Catholic Swiss cantons and Geneva has remained an independent republic for almost three centuries. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:01, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

::Seriously - like many other Swiss cantons? All the German princely states were independent for most of the 19th-century - post end of HRE and before the German Empire. That way madness lies. Note he is refusing to categorize them as Swiss at all. Johnbod (talk) 06:41, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

::: I agree that it is not helpful to remove them from Swiss trees. But we do have quite a few category trees for German princely states as well, e.g. :Category:Duchy_of_Brunswick-Lüneburg. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:45, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

::::Those are single undivided "people from place" categories, like we have for everywhere, and relate to all periods. Of course, we have had :Category:People from Geneva (city) and :Category:People from the canton of Geneva for ever (which of course he has not integrated with). These ones are totally different. Johnbod (talk) 06:51, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

::::: No the category only relates to the Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg during its existence, just like with the Republic of Geneva. But yes you are right that it needs to be linked properly. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:01, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

::::::Actually that doesn't seem to be true, if you wade through the many, many changes of name, boundary and status - eg what is Julius Henry, Duke of Saxe-Lauenburg doing here. The point remains that these people remain in "German fooer" categories. Johnbod (talk) 13:06, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

  • May I point that on WP:FR we have the super category « Personnalité liée à la République de Genève » [https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catégorie:Personnalité_liée_à_la_République_de_Genève] (which I didn’t create). This is a very good solution, as this way we don’t have to constantly remind contributors that the included personalities are not Swiss but Genevans. Without categories of the Republic of Geneva, the problem is that an engraver, say, will only be categorized as « Engraver », as he or she cannot be categorized as « Swiss engraver ».Sapphorain (talk) 09:20, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

:* Comment - :fr:Catégorie:Personnalité suisse par canton includes :fr:Catégorie:Personnalité_liée_à_la_République_de_Genève so WP:FR does categorise them as Swiss. Oculi (talk) 10:26, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

: WP:FR does not really categorise them as Swiss, as :fr:Catégorie:Ancien pays d'Europe also contains :fr:Catégorie:Personnalité_liée_à_la_République_de_Genève. Sapphorain (talk) 12:12, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

:* So it is linked both ways, and that should be done here as well. I've created a container :Category:People from the Republic of Geneva (1541–1815) now in order to ensure proper linking. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:08, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

: Thanks. Sapphorain (talk) 07:24, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

::*But these are still removed from "Swiss engravers" etc, which remains unacceptable. Marcocapelle, time to come off the fence - either we say this, and eventally probably some 150 other historical "nationalities" (Germany, Italy, India - most of the world in fact), is ok as the only nationality, or we merge into Swiss, possibly keeping these as only extra categories. This is the thin edge of a very thick wedge. In fact, according to Name of Switzerland, Switzerland and Swiss were in use in both the local languages and English throughout the period of the Republic of Geneva, and Geneva would have been included in them, just as German states were still thought of as in Germany and full of Germans long before a modern German state existed (despite the regular efforts of ill-informed editors to pursuade us otherwise). My opposition to these categories strengthens the more I look at them. Johnbod (talk) 12:55, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

:::* I've added :Category:Swiss engravers as a parent category of :Category:Engravers from the Republic of Geneva, and done similarly for the other categories mentioned. No more needs to be done from my perspective. The only reason to merge these categories would be in case we would no longer allow any people by former country categories but that would really require a fresh nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:29, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

:::::Yes, I did that too, already, but then he reverted me. As soon as this is closed, he will probably do the same to you - he has stated that Genevans are not Swiss more than once. This is complete bullshit - the Republic of Geneva should not be accepted among the very small number of "Former countries" we allow - if it is every petty duchy and rajah-ship will be too. This is crazy. Johnbod (talk) 23:07, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

:::::* {{ping|Sapphorain}} Your reaction is needed here. For background info: we normally parent People from former country categories such that they can also be traced via the tree of the current country. For example :Category:People from Brunswick-Lüneburg is parented to :Category:People from former German states in Lower Saxony; :Category:People from the county of Flanders‎ is parented to :Category:Medieval Flemish people while :Category:Flemish people is parented to :Category:People by region in Belgium; etc. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:39, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

::::::: What User:Johnbod did after I created this engravers category was to replace the single parent :Category:Engravers by nationality by :Category:Swiss engravers. This was of course not acceptable. I have no objection if both stay. By the way, I have never stated that Genevans are not Swiss, but that Genevans of the 18th century were not Swiss, which is an historical fact. Finally the number of former countries considered in certains categories is far from « very small » : in the :Category:People by former country there are nearly 200 entries. Sapphorain (talk) 07:19, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

::::::::Just as I said! Afaik all of the :Category:People by former country sub-cats have a modern national parent. Johnbod (talk) 09:08, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

::::::::: Please if both of you accept both parent categories then everyone is happy. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:02, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

::::::::::I will MOST CERTAINLY NOT BE HAPPY. We should be extremely sparing with "Profession by former micro-state" categories. I'm amazed there is not more concern about this. Is there any serious literature on "Engravers from the Republic of Geneva" treated as a group or topic? No! Did they have a distinct style? No! If we applied this to Italy, :Category:Italian painters would just become a forest of sub-cats, and you would need to know which city the person you were looking for came from to find them. As it is there are a lot of them, but they are organized by period and century, as well as city. And here the regional styles have always been recognised as very distinct, and treated as such in art history, unlike the present case. Likewise Germany. He has been doing earlier monkeying about like [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jean-%C3%89tienne_Liotard&type=revision&diff=831035781&oldid=830991539 this, which goes against all RS] - for example ULAN, the best reference for such things - this [http://www.getty.edu/vow/ULANServlet?english=Y&find=Jean-%C3%89tienne+Liotard&role=&page=1&nation= lists 7 varieties of his name, but only one nationality - "Swiss"] (they aren't afraid to list variant nationalities when the sources disagree). Johnbod (talk) 01:52, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

::::::::::: Do Swiss engravers and Dutch engravers have a different style? Maybe, maybe not, but the only reason we have them in different categories is that we diffuse engravers by country. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:56, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose -- The republic existed 1541-1815 as a self-governing city-state, which was in "perpetual alliance" with the Swiss Confederation from 1584, but apparently not technically part of it. There was a short break under Napoleon. Ultimately, this might be regarded as one of a number of states that emerged as fragments of the Holy Roman Empire that ceased to be part of it. Lichtenstein and Monaco being surviving examples, and the Papal State of Avignon and the Principality of Orange former ones. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:58, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Ok, and do we have :Category:Artists from the Principality of Orange? Do we we want that? Especially if it means they are removed from French artists? No! Johnbod (talk) 01:52, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
  • And now he is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jean-%C3%89tienne_Liotard&oldid=prev&diff=845804865 REVERTING TO STOP MY CORRECTIONS]. Johnbod (talk) 13:11, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Peterkingiron, the "Genevan Republic" was, as I understand it, technically part of the Holy Roman Empire until it was dissolved in 1805 or whenever, just like any German duchy. We should treat it the same way as them. Johnbod (talk) 13:46, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Orange (and Avignon) were not part of France in this period. Technically it was part of HRE, but to categorise it do would be misleading, as normally HRE = Germany. I see no problem in categorising people as "from Geneva". This is no worse than having a category for Genoa or Lucca, both of which were small independent republics. The greater problem is how to parent these. Possibly we need a parent category for small states in southern Europe. The English WP has adopted a policy of using contemporary (not current) polities. Arguments below from the policy of foreign WPs do not help, nor will the policies of biographical dictionaries and encyclopedias. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:54, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
  • As has been said many times here, the problem is not "categorising people as "from Geneva"", which of course we already did with :Category:People from Geneva (city) and :Category:People from the canton of Geneva, but removing them from all "Swiss" categories and removing all mention of "Swiss" from the articles. Do you see a problem with that? Johnbod (talk) 21:40, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support Merge: Anyone in doubt about this should try googling the names in :Category:Artists from the Republic of Geneva +the word artist (e.g., Pierre Soubeyran artist) and see what comes up in reliable sources. Sources that Wikipedia should follow. Ewulp (talk) 01:39, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment I would like to mention the following document supporting my point of view (opposing merge): [https://www.bj.admin.ch/content/dam/data/bj/gesellschaft/zivilstand/weisungen/ks-07/20-08-12-01-f.pdf Circulaire de l’Office fédéral de la justice] du 1er décembre 2008, article 2.2.2: « En outre, une personne décédée ne peut ni acquérir ni perdre la nationalité suisse après son décès ». (« Besides, a deceased person can neither acquire nor lose the Swiss nationality after death » )Sapphorain (talk) 07:41, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

::That is guidance about still born children. A 21st century administrative document of that nature is entirely irrelevant a discussion of the nationality of people from 1815 or earlier. Please provide some reliable sources describing any of these people as "Genevan". 213.205.240.200 (talk) 21:45, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

:::This document is not irrelevant at all. It concerns primarily still born children, true, but it is released by the Department of Justice of the Swiss confederation, and its article 2.2.2 is applicable to any person. It follows from it that an individual cannot acquire the Swiss citizenship after his/her death, and thus that Jean-Etienne Liotard was not and will never be Swiss. He was born and died in the Republic of Geneva, and thus was a Genevan. Sapphorain (talk) 22:03, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

:::And I see you have been editing those too, changing the nationalities from Swiss to "Genevan"! I wonder how long those will stand. Johnbod (talk) 00:03, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

:::We are not talking about "taking into account" here. These Genevans have been removed from ALL swiss categories, and all mention of "Swiss" removed from their articles. The French ones you mention all have the "usual" categories and mentions, indeed, they are also in categories like "Catégorie:Personnalité belge du XVIIe siècle", which are rather controversial here. Not that what the French WP does matters in the slightest here anyway. Johnbod (talk) 15:00, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

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== Category:Songs about stars ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 10:30, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Songs about stars}}

:Nominator's rationale: All of the entries have been added because of the title. There are 6 songs called 'Lucky Star' are they all about 'Stars? Is 'Stardust' about stars? There is nothing to really join these songs except for a word in the title. This is NOT what categorisation is for, categorisation is to bring together DEFINING aspects of the subject, not just the title. Richhoncho (talk) 15:31, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Category creator is getting out of hand with some of these "songs by theme" categories by using it to basically categorize by a common word in the title. --StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 22:52, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
  • delete considering that most of these songs aren't about stars anyway. Mangoe (talk) 12:50, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Delete I'm no fan of "things about X" because we lack criteria to determine how much about X the thing must be and what reliable sources tell us that it's at least that much about it. Even were I to put that reservation to the side, this category fails as it seems less about whether the categorized song is "about stars" than whether the song's title has "star" or its French equivalent in its title. A no-no per WP:SHAREDNAME. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:26, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

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== Category:Camelon F.C. players ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 10:28, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Camelon F.C. players to :Category:Camelon Juniors F.C. players

:Nominator's rationale: As per the Tranent discussion, this club has opted to retain the "Juniors" part of its identity despite having left the junior leagues to join a "senior" league. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:56, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. Hhkohh (talk) 13:38, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Support per nom and C2D, match parent article name. GiantSnowman 11:46, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

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== Category:Tranent Juniors F.C. players ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Nomination withdrawn Hhkohh (talk) 15:30, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Tranent Juniors F.C. players to :Category:Tranent F.C. players

:Nominator's rationale: The club has recently left the junior leagues to enter a "senior" league, and therefore the "Juniors" part of the name is now inaccurate. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:19, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. Hhkohh (talk) 10:33, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Withdraw, as I have been advised that some of the clubs (Tranent and Camelon) have retained the "Juniors" part of their identity despite moving into a "senior" league. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 11:34, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

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== Category:Dunipace Juniors F.C. ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 10:29, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Dunipace Juniors F.C. to :Category:Dunipace F.C.

:* Propose renaming :Category:Dunipace Juniors F.C. players to :Category:Dunipace F.C. players

:Nominator's rationale: The club has recently moved from the junior leagues to the "senior" leagues, and has consequently dropped "Juniors" from its name. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 08:12, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. Hhkohh (talk) 08:33, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

::Note:{{ping|Jmorrison230582}} I have merged 2 renaming discussions. Hhkohh (talk) 08:44, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Support per nom and C2D, match parent article name. GiantSnowman 11:45, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

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== Category:Alumni by university or college in the Palestinian territories ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename. – Fayenatic London 08:51, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Alumni by university or college in the Palestinian territories to :Category:Alumni by university or college in the State of Palestine

:* Propose renaming :Category: People by university or college in the Palestinian territories‎ to :Category: People by university or college in the State of Palestine

:Nominator's rationale: renaming was opposed in this batch discussion while it was supported in this next batch discussion so I'm nominating these two categories separately now. {{ping|Greyshark09|Laurel Lodged|Place Clichy}} pinging participants to previous discussions. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:51, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

::* {{ping|Greyshark09|Laurel Lodged|Place Clichy}} trying pinging for the second time. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:08, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

:::: {{Ping|Marcocapelle}} It worked this time , thanks {{smiley}}. Place Clichy (talk) 05:22, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Support. Now that {{C|Universities and colleges in the State of Palestine}} and {{C|Faculty by university or college in the State of Palestine‎}} have been moved, these 2 really stand out. These cats are not in any way specific to the 1967-2012 period. We don't usually sort alumni cats by past political regime. It would be like having a {{C|Alumni by university in the Kingdom of Great Britain}} (1707-1801) for the sake of placing :Category:Alumni of the University of Cambridge and :Category:Alumni of the University of Oxford etc. in it. It wouldn't make sense, nor would splitting alumni categories by historical period. {{Ping|Marcocapelle}} the notification didn't work, for some reason. Place Clichy (talk) 01:37, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Neutral - i'm not inclined to oppose, due to the article name change.GreyShark (dibra) 13:00, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

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== Sportspeople (Part 1) ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Not rename. (non-admin closure) Hhkohh (talk) 14:05, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

:Renaming :Category:Sportspeople by country to :Category:People in sports by country

::Renaming :Category:Sportspeople in Finland to :Category:People in sports in Finland

::Renaming :Category:Sportspeople in Russia to :Category:People in sports in Russia

::Renaming :Category:Sportspeople in Sweden to :Category:People in sports in Sweden

::Renaming :Category:Sportspeople in Finland to :Category:People in sports in Finland

::Renaming :Category:Sportspeople by country and by club or team to :Category:People in sports by country and by club or team

:Renaming :Category:Sportspeople by nationality to :Category:Sports competitors by nationality (++ all national subcategories - can anyone help with tagging here?)

::Renaming :Category:Sportspeople by national team to :Category:Sports competitors by national team

::Renaming :Category:Sportspeople by sport and nationality to :Category:Sports competitors by sport and nationality

:::Renaming :Category:Lists of sportspeople by sport and nationality to :Category:Lists of sports competitors by sport and nationality

:::Renaming :Category:Sportspeople with disabilities by sport and nationality to :Category:Sports competitors with disabilities by sport and nationality

:Renaming :Category:Sportspeople by position to :Category:Sports competitors by position

:Renaming :Category:Sportspeople by club or team to :Category:Sports competitors by club or team

:Merging :Category:Sportspeople by cause of death to :Category:People in sports by cause of death

::Renaming :Category:Sportspeople who committed suicide to :Category:People in sports who committed suicide

::Renaming :Category:Murdered sportspeople to :Category:Murdered people in sports

::Renaming :Category:Murdered American sportspeople to :Category:Murdered American people in sports

::Renaming :Category:Sportspeople who died in Nazi concentration camps to :Category:People in sports who died in Nazi concentration camps

::Renaming :Category:Sportspeople who died in the Holocaust to :Category:People in sports who died in the Holocaust

:Renaming :Category:Sportspeople by century to :Category:People in sports by century

::Renaming :Category:18th-century sportspeople to :Category:18th-century people in sports

::Renaming :Category:19th-century sportspeople to :Category:19th-century people in sports

::Renaming :Category:Indian sportspeople by century to :Category:Indian people in sports by century

::Renaming :Category:18th-century Indian sportspeople to :Category:18th-century Indian people in sports

::Renaming :Category:19th-century Indian sportspeople to :Category:19th-century Indian people in sports

:Renaming :Category:Lists of sportspeople to :Category:Lists of people in sports

::Renaming :Category:Lists of sportspeople by sport to :Category:Lists of people in sports by sport

::Renaming :Category:Lists of sportspeople by sport and nationality to :Category:Lists of people in sports by sport and nationality

:Renaming :Category:Sportspeople in antiquity to :Category:Sports competitors in antiquity

:Renaming :Category:Ancient Greek sportspeople to :Category:Ancient Greek sports competitors

::Renaming :Category:Ancient Greek sportspeople by sport to :Category:Ancient Greek sports competitors by sport

:Renaming :Category:Banned sportspeople to :Category:Banned people in sports

::Renaming :Category:Sportspeople banned for life to :Category:People in sports banned for life

:Renaming :Category:Sportspeople involved in betting scandals to :Category:People in sports involved in betting scandals

:Renaming :Category:Career achievements of sportspeople to :Category:Career achievements of sports competitors

:Renaming :Category:Sportspeople convicted of crimes to :Category:People in sports convicted of crimes

::Renaming :Category:American sportspeople convicted of crimes to :Category:American people in sports convicted of crimes

:Renaming :Category:Cultural depictions of sportspeople to :Category:Cultural depictions of people in sports

:Renaming :Category:Expatriate sportspeople to :Category:Expatriate people in sports

:Renaming :Category:Income of sportspeople to :Category:Income of sports competitors

:Renaming :Category:Images of sportspeople to :Category:Images of people in sports

:Renaming :Category:Intersex sportspeople to :Category:Intersex sports competitors

:Renaming :Category:LGBT sportspeople to :Category:LGBT people in sports

::Renaming :Category:LGBT sportspeople by sport to :Category:LGBT sports competitors by sport

::Renaming :Category:Bisexual sportspeople to :Category:Bisexual people in sports

::Renaming :Category:Transgender and transsexual sportspeople to :Category:Transgender and transsexual people in sports

:Renaming :Category:Nicknamed groups of sportspeople to :Category:Nicknamed groups of people in sports

:Renaming :Category:Songs about sportspeople to :Category:Songs about people in sports

:Renaming :Category:Wikipedia books on sportspeople to :Category:Wikipedia books on sports competitors

:Nominator's rationale: Following the outcome of this discussion there have been efforts to move away from the ambiguous "sportspeople" definition towards a :Category:People in sports/:Category:Sports competitors model which clearly distinguishes the players of sports within a broader category including others involved in the sports industry.

:I appreciate this is going to be bit of a sprawling nomination given the long-standing, widespread use of the "sportspeople" phrase, thus this is part one. Work has already been undertaken to create a parent :Category:People in sports by nationality structure. The general principles behind the nominations above are as follows:

::(a) if parent "people in sports" category already exists, then rename corresponding "sportspeople" category to "sports competitors"

::(b) if no "people in sports" category exists and current category covers information on competing and non-competing sportspeople, then rename "sportspeople" to "people in sports"

::(c) if category content solely pertains to sports competitors, then rename "sportspeople" to "sports competitors"

:Given the partial nature of this nomination, I would appreciate if people could make opposing comments and queries on specific categories, as I imagine some will be more controversial than others. Some parts of the "sportspeople" structure have been left out given the need for more work to divide some structures (mostly nationality ones). Any help with tagging is much appreciated. Thanks. SFB 01:02, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. Hhkohh (talk) 08:56, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Looks like a good idea Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:13, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose - I'm not seeing the consensus that the nominator is claiming, and the proposed wording is clunky. GiantSnowman 11:46, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose this target - there's a WP:ENGVAR issue here as British English uses the collective noun "sport" not "sports". So I can't support any wording that uses "sports", and "sportspeople" gets round the WP:ENGVAR problem.Le Deluge (talk) 14:27, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose -- We have adopted this to cover sportsmen and sportswomen. People in sport is wider, covering coaches, umpires, administrators, etc. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:00, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose, I don't see the problem with the widely understood word 'sportspeople'. The new names are quite ambigious, for example, were Murdered American people in sports murdered in their sports?! Sionk (talk) 21:26, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

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