Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 May 20

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Croatian diaspora organisations. – Fayenatic London 09:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Croatian organisations to :Category:Overseas Croatian organisations

:Nominator's rationale: All the articles are about organisations outside Croatia Rathfelder (talk) 22:38, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

• Conceptually agree with rename, but overseas is not the best term because some articles are about organisations based on the same continent. Suggested alternative: :Category:Croatian diaspora organisations, similar to e.g. :Category:Polish diaspora organizations. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:12, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
• Happy with Marcocapelle's proposal.Rathfelder (talk) 19:37, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: No consensus to delete; rename to :Category:People temporarily excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church. Timrollpickering 22:22, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Released from excommunication}}

:Nominator's rationale: Even being excommunicated is rarely defining, but being un-excommunicated seems even less so. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:42, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Possibly listify. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:46, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Excommunication is a drastic act of social exclusion that has a distinctive outcome for the subject. The release of this order is even more distinctive as it represents a transformation of the subject and/or the community. SFB 02:03, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

:* Imprisonment is also a drastic act of social exclusion, but we do not categorize people as a former prisoner either. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:13, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• comment IF this category is to be deleted, first one must make sure each article is in an excommunicated category. Hmains (talk) 16:40, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

:* Good point. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:11, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

:** Comment: the relevant parent, to which the contents could be merged, must be :Category:People excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church. One alternative that might be worth considering would be renaming to :Category:People temporarily excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church. – Fayenatic London 20:19, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

• It's important describes all persons no more excommunicated by the Church Roltz (talk) 01:39, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
• The above comment was originally mis-posted at the foot of Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 May 30, so I have pasted it here. It seems to be in favour of keeping the category. – Fayenatic London 08:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
• Delete. Bad name and not as important as the fact of excommunication. Srnec (talk) 23:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• Rename to :Category:People temporarily excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church. Deleting as suggested by Srnec would remove these biographies from the hierarchy altogether, even though s/he implies that the fact of excommunication is important. I disagree with the nominator's view that it is rarely defining. If not kept/renamed, the category should be upmerged. – Fayenatic London 09:33, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering 22:25, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Expatriate organizations to :Category:Diaspora organizations

:Nominator's rationale: Two names for the same thing. Diaspora seems to be more common usage as its applied mostly to poorer countries. Rathfelder (talk) 19:32, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support and leave category redirect as same topic. SFB 02:04, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
• Question: should :Category:American expatriate organizations also be renamed to :Category:American diaspora organizations? Or should it be kept as a case of WP:ENGVAR? Marcocapelle (talk) 19:14, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

:*I think when we get down to organisations relating to individual countries we should use whatever term is most commonly used there. In the UK we refer to our emigrants as expatriates, I suppose because we dont see the process as dispersing our people. But I do want to get the various categories brought into one heirarchy, regardless of what they are called. And I can see problems with the term "overseas" as well. Rathfelder (talk) 22:40, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose, as there is a difference. Expatriates are generally only temporarily in a foreign country, usually as migrant workers; diaspora usually refers to groups of people who are permanently settled, away from their cultural origin. – Fayenatic London 09:14, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

:*People who form expatriate organisations are generally pretty settled. Many people who migrate into what is called diaspora often think they will return to their country of origin. Sometimes they do, sometimes they dont. The real distinction is economic. Expats generally have moved from a richer country. It's an entirely subjective distinction.Rathfelder (talk) 08:07, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support per further explanation of nominator. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:11, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: No consensus to upmerge so rename. Timrollpickering 22:44, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Laundry worker to :Category:Laundry workers

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:CATNAME: "Names of set categories should be plural. Examples: "Writers", "Villages in Poland"." (See also next two listings) PamD 17:35, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

• Upmerge does not seem to have enough content to warrant creation. Dhobi should be excluded as it is an ethnic group, not an occupation, which would leave two articles which doesn't seem to offer any navigational benefit. SFB 18:14, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
• Upmerge per SFB. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:35, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
• Double upmerge to :Category:Laundry and :Category:Occupations, and do not remove Dhobi from :Category:Laundry since the caste is very strongly related to the laundry industry. (If not merged, rename to "Laundry occupations".) – Fayenatic London 14:14, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
• Rename: It was my mistake to create this category with the job title in the singular; it should indeed be plural. Dhobi is both a job title and a caste description, so it needs to be findable by readers looking for more information about either area. I went through all the laundry articles I could find, and for such a significant part of human life, it was very poorly categorised. There are now four articles in :Category:Laundry worker, and I think they serve a useful purpose, especially since the word is not English and so not guessable to most reader (unlike e.g. washerwoman). Carbon Caryatid (talk) 14:28, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Laundry washing equipment. – Fayenatic London 09:00, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Device to wash laundry to :Category:Devices to wash laundry

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:CATNAME: "Names of set categories should be plural. Examples: "Writers", "Villages in Poland"." PamD 17:34, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support as speedy Commonsense rename. SFB 18:16, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
• Rename to {{cl|Laundry washing equipment}}, to match parent ({{cl|Laundry equipment}}). Grutness...wha? 01:57, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support alt rename to {{cl|Laundry washing equipment}} for consistency. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:44, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Laundry drying equipment. – Fayenatic London 09:02, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Device to dry laundry to :Category:Devices to dry laundry

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:CATNAME: "Names of set categories should be plural. Examples: "Writers", "Villages in Poland"." PamD 17:27, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support as speedy Commonsense rename. SFB 18:16, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
• Rename to {{cl|Laundry drying equipment}}, to match parent ({{cl|Laundry equipment}}). Grutness...wha? 01:57, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support alt rename to {{cl|Laundry drying equipment}} for consistency. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:44, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Rename/merge. Timrollpickering 22:20, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:12th-century Byzantine theologians to :Category:12th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians

:Nominator's rationale: The 12th century is when :Category:Roman Catholic theologians by century starts and when Eastern Orthodox theologians (Byzantine, Greek, Russian etc) can be categorised by century. Byzantine theologians would still be categorised as XXth-century Byzantine writers, rather than being separated (ghettoised) into a subcategory of XXth-century Byzantine theologians. Hugo999 (talk) 01:46, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

• To begin with, support, theologians should be split by denominational family in the first place. Also delete :Category:Byzantine theologians by century which will become empty after re-parenting the nominated category. But next, when we apply this, the second article in the category should be purged (the second article is about a Catholic theologian in Byzantium) and with only article left I would rather upmerge the category to :Category:Byzantine theologians and :Category:12th-century theologians. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:18, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support Marco's scheme Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:53, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
• Comment There are 57 theologians in the category :Category:Byzantine theologians; many are not categorised as theologians by century. From a glance through them the majority are in the later period (12th to 15th century) after the Eastern and Western split, or probably about 8 to 10 per century. And taking out Hugo Etherianis as a Roman Catholic/Catholic theologian leaves Neilos Doxapatres plus several more 12th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians: Joannes Zonaras, Constantine Chrysomalus, Constantine Stilbes, Eustathius of Thessalonica andc Michael Glycas (although as the parent category is "Christian theologians" Aaron ben Elijah a Karaite (Jewish) theologian should come out). The 12th century category for Eastern Orthodox theologians would be the start of a series later including Russian Orthodox, Rumanian Orthodox etc theologians. Hugo999 (talk) 11:19, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
• Further comment have added the appropriate Christian theologians by century century for about 20 pre-12th-century Byzantine theologians, and about 8 pre-12th century ones already had it. This leaves about 28 Byzantine theologians (12th to 15th-century) for subcategories of Eastern Orthodox theologians by century, even if there are no Russian Orthodox etc theologians in that period. Hugo999 (talk) 23:14, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

:* Thanks for sorting this out. In that case I am fully in support and withdraw the second part of my earlier comment. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:51, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

:*Thanks, will create the new categories (too much for an administrator!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hugo999 (talk • contribs)

• Comment - what about :Category:German theologians by century, :Category:French theologians by century‎, etc? If Marcocapelle's proposal passes, then those should be adjusted as well.GreyShark (dibra) 11:31, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

:* Quoting myself, theologians should be split by denominational family in the first place. If there are way too many theologians in a denominational family I wouldn't object further subdividing them by nationality. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:56, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

• Keep. The top :Category:Theologians is split by nationality as well as by religion and by denomination, and all of these are sub-divided by century. :Category:Byzantine theologians is part of the "by nationality" hierarchy, and should not be transplanted into the denomination hierarchy. By all means populate :Category:12th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians better. Note that the target category already exists; the nomination currently looks misleading because the word "category" is missing from the nominator's link, creating a red-link; if this were corrected, the nomination would in effect be for a merger rather than a rename. – Fayenatic London 20:15, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

:* The latter comment implies that this whole discussion is invalid. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:59, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.