Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 September 19#Category:Arctic flora

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: do not rename. MER-C 10:07, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Staff of Cranmer Hall, Durham to :Category:Academics of Cranmer Hall, Durham

:Nominator's rationale: Consistency with other members of :Category:Academics by university in England.

:* Propose renaming :Category:Staff of Ridley Hall, Cambridge to :Category:Academics of Ridley Hall, Cambridge

:Nominator's rationale: Consistency with other members of :Category:Academics by university in England.

:* Propose renaming :Category:Staff of Ripon College Cuddesdon to :Category:Academics of Ripon College Cuddesdon

:Nominator's rationale: Consistency with other members of :Category:Academics by university in England.

:* Propose renaming :Category:Staff of Wesley House to :Category:Academics of Wesley House

:Nominator's rationale: Consistency with other members of :Category:Academics by university in England.

:* Propose renaming :Category:Staff of Westcott House, Cambridge to :Category:Academics of Westcott House, Cambridge

:Nominator's rationale: Consistency with other members of :Category:Academics by university in England.

:CfR discussion following opposed speedy nomination. The reason is consistency: almost all members of :Category:Academics by university in England begin with "Academics of", these theological colleges are linked with universities and I don't believe they need different category names. The members of these categories are academics, heads and (a few) chaplains. The articles :Ripon College Cuddesdon and :Westcott House, Cambridge list enough people articles for fairly large "academics" and "heads" categories for both colleges. There are enough articles for :Cranmer Hall, Durham and :Ridley Hall, Cambridge for at least five academics and a larger number of heads. Academics of :Wesley House will be too small to split. If this is agreed I will manually move any chaplains without a role as academic or head to "People associated with Foo" and all heads to "Heads of Foo". TSventon (talk) 09:44, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

{{collapse top|Copy of Speedy discussion}}

• :Category:Staff of Cranmer Hall, Durham to :Category:Academics of Cranmer Hall, Durham – C2C: Consistency with established category tree names. All members of these categories are academics and almost all members of :Category:Academics by university in England begin with Academics of. TSventon (talk) 16:06, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
• :Category:Staff of Ridley Hall, Cambridge to :Category:Academics of Ridley Hall, Cambridge
• :Category:Staff of Ripon College Cuddesdon to :Category:Academics of Ripon College Cuddesdon
• :Category:Staff of Wesley House to :Category:Academics of Wesley House
• :Category:Staff of Westcott House, Cambridge to :Category:Academics of Westcott House, Cambridge
• Oppose - not all members of these categories are academics, some are chaplains. As theological colleges, they are not direct equivalents to universities, though they all offer degrees through other bodies. The aim of the general "Staff" description is so they are not just restricted to the academic staff. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 20:35, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
• I suggest that these should be renamed to "People associated with Foo" and then manually split to "Academics of Foo". The renames could be speedy, C2C with other similar categories within :Category:People by university or college in England. – Fayenatic London 15:24, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• I support that suggestion and would be happy to do the manual split as the numbers are small. I would also split out "Principals of Foo". I was also discussing this on User:Gaia Octavia Agrippa's talk page. Incidentally if someone is a tutor then a principal of the same college, do they go in both academics and principals categories, or just principals? TSventon (talk) 15:55, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• Isn't the point not to have lots of small categories? They are consistent with each other as theological colleges, rather than a universities. Two categories of "alumni" and "staff" is simpler (and to me better) than having sub-categories of academics, chaplains, principals and alumni. If staff was split, there would be multiple incidents of doubling and even tripling up. There isn't any confusion stemming from the current titles, but placing chaplains under "academics" would introduce this. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 00:01, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
• User:Gaia Octavia Agrippa, I still think it is better to be consistent with other universities and colleges. User:Fayenatic london's suggestion of classifying chaplains as "People associated with Foo" would avoid confusion between chaplains and academic staff. The articles :Ripon College Cuddesdon and :Westcott House, Cambridge seem to list enough people articles for fairly large "academics" and "heads" categories for both colleges. TSventon (talk) 12:54, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
• Moved to full discussion. TSventon (talk) 09:51, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
• Pinging User:Gaia Octavia Agrippa, User:DBD (creator of "Staff of Westcott House") and User:Fayenatic london. TSventon (talk) 10:30, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
• Presumably I created it there for consistency with pre-existing comparable categories: the other TEIs. Because of the presence of non-academic staff (especially clergy), I would favour TEIs having Alum and Staff categories — consistency with eachother rather than with universities, with which they aren't comparable. (For instance, the academics of Westcott are all also academics of the University of Cambridge and/or Durham University.) DBD 12:18, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
• DBD, I have seen that there are arguments for a different structure for theological colleges, but on balance I prefer the general university and college structure, hence the full discussion. These categories only have a handful of chaplains so I don't think a special structure is needed to accommodate them. TSventon (talk) 11:26, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
• Sorry, I just realised I replied in the wrong place; my next response is at the full discussion. DBD 15:52, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
• DBD no problem, I will copy everything over for background. TSventon (talk) 16:08, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

{{collapse bottom }}

• Question, Is "academics" unambiguous enough, wouldn't this also attract alumni? Marcocapelle (talk) 05:40, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
• In British English "academic" is, as a noun, unambiguously a reference to university teachers/researchers: equivalent to the American English use of "faculty". It is never used for students or alumni. As these are British institutions, then British English should be used as per MOS:ENGVAR. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 15:10, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
• Thank you. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:37, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - as stated in the speedy discussion below, theological colleges/seminaries are not the same as universities. The staff of these colleges include chaplains, academics, administrators etc. Individuals often take multiple roles, especially in smaller colleges, and it is difficult to divide them into neat categories. These are not large, overflowing categories and so there isn't a need to separate them on that basis. They are standardised with each other as theological colleges, and I see no need to standardise them with universities (which unlike these colleges, offer their own degrees and don't have the same role confusion). In addition, :Category:University and college chaplains in the United Kingdom doesn't categorise chaplains as academics (because, intrinsically, they aren't). Due to individuals holding multiple roles, successively or simultaneously, they would have to placed in multiple categories. The suggestion of placing chaplains in "People associated with Foo" rather than one of the new sub-categories would suggest that there in confusion and that they do in fact belong in a subcategory but have been wrongly categorised. In addition, WP:OCASSOC, suggests "People associated with Foo" are too vague and removes chaplains from their context as staff of these institutions and not, for example, a donor or architect of the college's building. However, as previously stated, to have multiple sub-categories would be to place individuals in a number of them resulting in over categorisation, rather than introducing specificity.

: In short, the current categories are not overflowing, and the suggested categories would just introduce confusion and multiplication. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 15:10, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

• (I mistakenly posted this at Speedy) Presumably I created it there for consistency with pre-existing comparable categories: the other TEIs. Because of the presence of non-academic staff (especially clergy), I would favour TEIs having Alum and Staff categories — consistency with eachother rather than with universities, with which they aren't comparable. (For instance, the academics of Westcott are all also academics of the University of Cambridge and/or Durham University.) DBD 12:18, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
• (and TSventon replied there:) **DBD, I have seen that there are arguments for a different structure for theological colleges, but on balance I prefer the general university and college structure, hence the full discussion. These categories only have a handful of chaplains so I don't think a special structure is needed to accommodate them. TSventon (talk) 11:26, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
• Principals too aren't necessarily academics (in recent times — e.g. I had two successive Principals when I was at theological college, and neither was a published academic; they were good teachers of their specialisms, but not "academics"). TEIs are neither universities (not able to award their own qualifications) nor usually simply colleges of a university (e.g. Ridley, Westcott, and Wesley are "associated" with Cambridge), so they often have staff members who aren't academics in the proper sense — most notably Principals or Chaplains who are employed in more pastoral roles — though some of these have taught non-academic disciplines in-house or have been academics anyway. Even the "Academics of X House, Y" aren't actually academics of that house — they are academics of the University/ies which provide the ordinands' teaching and award their degrees. Take a recent example, Jeremy Morris — while at Westcott, he will have been a "Staff of Westcott House, Cambridge", an "Academic of the University of Cambridge" (and maybe an "Academic of Anglia Polytechnic University" which then awarded Westcott's non-Cambridge degrees) but not an "Academic of Westcott..." DBD 16:08, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
• Comment, I suppose the proposed academics categories can be created as subcategories of the currently existing staff categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:37, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose The explanation of chaplains roles in these places is key. Staff covers what we are aiming at best here.John Pack Lambert (talk) 06:25, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
• Potential keep -- I do not see why we have to make this accord with universities, whose teaching staff are expected to engage in research and to publish it. Theological colleges are frequently independent institutions that have their degrees validated by a university, which is in effect an examining authority. They used mainly to award London University degrees, as did a lot of tertiary colleges until 20-30 years ago. Can we not just leave "staff of … " as a subcat of academics by university or college? The attempt to make diverse things uniform is a bad feature of WP, probably actually a misapplication of policy. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:12, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
• Comment, Thanks all, I think this can now be closed as there is currently no support for renaming the categories. TSventon (talk) 10:03, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. MER-C 10:05, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Aikido terms and principles to :Category:Aikido

:Nominator's rationale: This is the only "... terms and principles" category in en wp. If it is thought that separating these articles from :Category:Aikido is useful then it could be renamed to :Category:Aikido concepts and put in :Category:Concepts by field, but it would be better to upmerge and then create more meaningful categories such as Aikido techniques. DexDor ^(talk) 06:42, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:45, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.